Chase Goldman

As an alternative, if you prefer to use earbuds while detecting, you can just plug wired, quality earbuds into the WS 6 puck or WSA II puck using the accessory headphone jack adapter plate (about $15) to remain untethered to the detector while placing the puck in a pocket or pouch.

Wireless coils? You're a fan now?

This BT T/R should work fine as it supports APTX-LL. Do you have a preferred set of BT APTX-LL phones you are planning to use (or purchase) with it or are you going to buy 2 of these to use with a preferred set of wired earbuds or phones? I honestly have not heard many complaints about the quality of the included wireless phones. But I understand earbuds may be preferred in hot weather.

Yep they're in the big box stores here and yeah I've seen the cheesy NG branded ones too in store and on Amazon. But they are just not priced competitively here compared to ML's other offerings. So it would be hard for Nokta to really make a dent for Go Find customers who could easily pay the same for a Vanquish or just $70 more for an X-Terra. It's just so crowded in the sub $200 price point, its really hard for someone to break in and start smashing Go Find sales since all the choices down there just split the consumer's vote as they are basically just generic noise as far the consumer is concerned. At that point they are just an impulse buy and one box is as good as another. You would basically have to offer the low end Simplex for less than $100 and now you are competing with your own "Mini" and "Midi" "Hoard" which are priced at the Go Find level. It's just really compressed and fractured down there in the US.

Is Go Find really selling all that well such that Nokta has to really compete at that level? I mean Go Find 22 is at $120 and Go Find 66 is at $199. With the Vanquish 340 is also at $199 and with X-Terra Pro at $269, Minelab is doing a great job smashing Go Find's relevancy on their own.

Since you are talking fresh water hunting, then Orx should be as stable as Legend in the water so Orx's limited stability in salt water vs. the Legend shouldn't be a concern. However, Legend has several advantages over Orx for what you are looking for. Orx is primarily designed for natural gold detecting with limited "coin" modes added almost as an afterthought to slightly broaden it's appeal as an alternative to its more expensive sibling, the XP Deus. That technology is basically more than a decade old, and while it still works well it was surpassed by the multifrequency XP Deus 2 (although the Orx probably still has an advantage over Deus 2 for Micro Gold, for now, based on its higher maximum operating frequency of 80+ khz using the small elliptical coil, for now). But I am not recommending that you get the Deus 2, because the cost is signficant. I am also not recommending the Orx either - despite its sensitivity on micro gold, that doesn't naturally translate into it being a superior gold jewelry detector., performance wise. Furthermore, making Orx work submerged involves more than just putting the remote in a sealed bag. You also need to run an antenna from the coil up the shaft and make sure that it terminates above the waterline in order to get the "wireless" signal from the coil to the remote. I consider that claptrap (antenna PLUS waterproof bag) an added hassle vs. a purpose built submersible detector. The Orx is a great micro gold detector, but would not be my first, second, or even third choice for submerged jewelry detecting or even coin shooting. Legend is much more versatile as an excellent jewelry detector, coin shooter, relic detector, and prospecting detector all rolled into one and it is purpose built to be operated submerged and it has excellent salt stability as a result of its simultaneous multifrequency functionality, should you ever decide to take it to a salt beach or salt lake. I would recommend getting the LG24 elliptical accessory coil for submerged detecting as it gives you less hydrodynamic drag vs. the stock 11" round coil and more swing coverage vs. the 6-inch round. As a result of its versatility and cost, is a much greater value overall (than Orx or even Equinox). You may want to invest in wired waterproof phones should you be going deep enough to submerge the control head as wireless audio will not work with the control head submerged. If you are primarily going to be using it for freshwater work, I would not bother with the Pro Pack because I think the LG24 is a much more versatile coil than the 6" round included in the pro pack. And the Pro Pack's extended use battery is pretty much an unnecessary accessory as it is not waterproof and occupies the multipurpose headphone/charging/updating plug when in use. Save your money and get the wireless package and see if you can swing a deal with your dealer to throw in the LG24 coil and/or a pair of Nokta waterproof wired phones, instead. BTW I love my XP Deus 2 and have owned the Deus, Orx, and Nox (as well as the Legend), so, if anything, I would be biased to XP. But of the two detectors you are considering, pretty much think Legend is a no brainer, despite your lackluster first go round with it. It definitely performs, and you need to give it a chance to prove itself. I would suggest simply using it in all the situations where you would normally use the Impact to learn it then take it into the water when you have gained enough confidence in its abilities. You didn't mention this but Quest is also coming out with a submersible multifrequency detector the V60/V80 series. This interesting as it appears to have a higher upper frequency range than Legend, Nox, Deus 2 or Manticore in multifrequency (80khz) and the V80 has a 60 khz single frequency setting which is higher than the typical 40 khz on Legend, Deus 2, Nox, and Manticore. FWIW.

Need to know what is going on with the higher end Simplex. If it is not selectable single frequency, at least, then Nokta has lost the battle battle before it started if ML actually hits the $269 price point with X-Terra Pro.

OK Missed that price announcement. That's not a bad price point for selectable Single Frequency. Which is really where Nokta should go with the "new" Simplex. If Nokta is embracing BT whole heartedly they really need to get the BT variant of their PP out there. And probably move away from APTX to BLE. They deadended pulse dive wireless integration when they abandoned their proprietary wireless accessories on Legend.

My idea was they (the bean counters) could have their cake and eat it too. Have Coiltek take the investment burden of coil manufacture and aftermarket support off ML's hands and then ride the wave of increased Manticore sales resulting from people who are swayed by the aftermarket coil choices. Also, the Coiltek 10x5 coil has been a smashing success from both a performance and sales perspective. Coiltek had a lot of trouble keeping up with demand. Don't understand why ML wouldn't want to aggressively get in a position to grab a piece of that action while the Manticore post-release hype and enthusiasm bubble is at its peak.

I have not seen this big ML price reduction of which you speak. Maybe I am misinterpreting your post? Yes, Nox 600/800 was a paradigm shift for ML as it brought relatively affordable, premium Simultaneous MF to the masses back in 2018. It was a game changer in terms of value (superior performance at reasonable cost). However that really didn't set ML on a path to be a leader in affordable, capable detectors going forward despite increased pressure from competitors of late (Garrett, Nokta, XP, and now Quest). The revamped Nox 700/900 (arguably what Nox should have been when released 5 years ago) was priced higher than the legacy Nox 600/800 and that was AFTER ML RAISED the price on the Nox 800 by $100US 4 years after release. The Manticore improves on some of Nox's features and adds a 2 D display but is the debateable incremental improvement in performance with a physical/ergonomic design equivalent to the Nox 900 worth the $600 premium over the Nox 900? Now they are getting ready to release a multiple selectable frequency machine (Xterra Pro) that doesn't appear to be poised to come in under the SMF Nokta Legend price point. I have not seen ANY ML answer to the Garrett Axiom and don't expect to any time soon since it's only been about a year plus since the GPX 6000 PI was released in the US at a price about $2K US more than the Axiom. So really, I am not understanding your point.

Safe travels!

Didn't know you did the pyramids 360 and it didn't change the trace shape much. Probably not worth it to go through the effort. Seems then that mass/volume is the most significant attribute especially in regards to how it pushes the target off the centerline. Thanks for the additional info, strick.

I pretty much confirmed that you have to be a member of the private Quest Metal Detectors Facebook Group in order to view the videos. Hopefully, Andy will post the videos to YouTube or directly on this site.

The "Air Metal Detectors" crowd sourced detector effort been discussed multiple times on the forum see the following: Bottom line, there are more downsides than upsides to this approach and the AMD effort has also suffered a number of setbacks technically (basically, many features just don't work, performance is poor to lackluster, the interface app is buggy, and updates are nonexistent), production wise, and distribution wise. Plus it doesn't help that the originating country (Ukraine) is in the midst of war. Perhaps Quest can turn it around, but even though it sounds interesting on paper, the concept is technically flawed because you are relying on standard bluetooth protocols to transfer data in order to ensure generic compatibility with both Android and Apple smartphones. That protocol is introduces too much latency and sources for real-time errors in the whole process, sets you up for multiple compatibility nightmares because you have zero control over people's phone configurations (this is much more complex than just making sure BT audio headphones are compatible). The phone is already doing too much "part time" tasking already, making it do yet another real time task just reduces overall reliability of the detector system. That's my take and it has pretty much played out the way I projected it would.

Good points, Andy and JCR Noting from strick’s results and statements that the similar shaped sinkers varied as to whether they touched the line based on their mass and or volume (i.e., the higher mass/volume sinkers were further from the center line) but also the blob shape appeared to be roughly consistent for each sinker shape group. This might indicate that there is not only a mass/volume bias in the 2D tracing algorithm independent of material composition with the implication that larger target magnetic fields might be considered by the algorithm more likely to be ferrous but that the algorithm is potentially assessing induced field symmetry for target tracing. Understanding these nuances and what the algorithm “thinks” it is seeing wrt to the target attributes would be key to unlocking more utility out of 2D target trace. Wish ML would give us more insight in that respect. Something (like a Treasure Talk article > do they still do those?) that supplements what they provided below in the user guide. For the targets that were less symmetric in one axis (e.g., the pyramidal sinkers) was also wondering, to Andy’s point, how the trace would vary based on the coil swing direction vs. the orientation of the target with respect to the coil. Also wondering if the line attachment shank played a role. Strick - Thanks for doing the test and for the screen shots. Learned a lot. If you have any further thoughts on the speculation above based on how you conducted those tests, would welcome your comments. For reference I am including some excerpts from the M-core user guide regarding how to interpret TT shapes and positions.

13" Detech Ultimate Coil. Bar none.

Gerry - The reason is that the Nox Multi-IQ piece (high frequency weighting and processing under the hood) is fundamentally the same for Gold 1 and 2. The only difference between the two is the user adjustable settings (Recovery Speed Setting) which can simply be replicated by utilizing the Custom User Profile. If you adjust the user settings identically for Gold 1 and 2 (Disc, Threshold level, recovery, iron bias, ground tracking) you will see they are the same. This is NOT true for Park 1 and 2, Field 1 and 2 or Beach 1 and 2. Even with identical user settings they will behave differently on the same targets. At one point, I recall that Nox Gold mode was going to use either 40khz single frequency and/or 40 kHz weighted Multi-IQ by default and at the last minute they chose Multi-IQ. They probably planned for 2 modes similar to what they did for Park, Field, and Beach and then realized at the end of the day, there basically is really is only one true Nox Gold mode and Gold 2 is just an unnecessary user setting variant “filler” mode. The probably translated that logic to M-core. Agree that to prospective M-core users, though, it appears on the surface to be a potential shortcoming compared to the Nox. I personally think the M-core custom user profile implementation needs an overhaul to make it more intuitive and flexible. You should be able to set up and save multiple custom combined Disc patterns AND ferrous limit profiles (not just the ferrous limits profiles, as provided today) that can be applied to any search mode as desired by the user. That would help make the single custom user profile more flexible because it would not be tied up (wasted) by a mode profile that simply has a different discrimination pattern. But that’s just me.

JCR thoroughly answered your question on bullet composition. Typical caliber was .58. There were also .69's and .54's and carbines were typically .52 but some were in smaller caliber. Pistols were .44 or .45 or smaller. Actual bullet ODs varied by type. The objective was to be able to easily push the bullet down through the barrel rifling after inserting the gunpowder, so the unfired diameter was typically less than .58. A conical cavity at the base of most minies would expand upon ignition and engage the barrel rifling. "Cleaner" bullets had zinc inserts in the base that would expand upon firing to scrape gunpowder residue that would build up on the rifling of the barrel. The main point I wanted to make was that translating air test results to actual in-ground performance was always tricky, but in situations where depth performance is degraded such as when mineralization is present (hot dirt) then the depth differences between the tested configurations shrink or get compressed typically in proportion the air test measurements. Thanks for the clarifications and posting your results.

Yep. I hunt there almost exclusively with the GPX and only pull the vlf out for work in thick iron or to scan the dirt dug out of a pit, use it in wooded areas where the dirt is not as hot or simply when my shoulder wears outcfrom the GPX. Not everyone has a PI (I wrote an article for the DIV website on why a PI is the preferred choice of Culpeper "veterans") there so I like to give advice on which of the new VLFs tend to work best in the hot stuff (and even "the classics" like the F75/T2 and MXT) if I have time I run some comparitive tests. The hardest thing to get across to folks not used to the hot stuff is that there is a big diffrence between detection depth and ID depth on a vlf in that soil. ID depth runs out very quickly within anywhere from 2 to 6 inches. After that, you can hear the target but the ID Is unreliable. So it becomes a dig it all situation. I had success at the last DIV by taking my D2 where the GPX's dare not go. One of our crew had pulled a couple keepers in a productive field but it was near roadside modern trash and power lines. I decided to give it a go in another field just to switch things up a little and change my luck. It was painful to keep pulling the 99% probable aluminum cans and canslaw, but was rewarded with a split Breast Plate and a NY Coat button that was hiding there in that relic detectorist's nightmare. This year, trying out the Axiom... Would like to find a new home for the GPX and my ATX backup and "rain" machine). They have both served me well, but really want the clean ergonomics, settings simplicity, lighter weight and GPX level performance of the Axiom.

Daniel, Thanks greatly for the info on that 12" coil. First person I've heard of that has actually used it! I was looking at it mainly for weight and reduced footprint in hot dirt. I have a 13" Ultimate on the F75 right now. I will look into the Super Fly, and thanks greatly for the offer to borrow and try that new coil. I'll PM you if I decide to try it out after all. I think I will bring the F75 to Culpeper at least with the stock and bake it off against the D2, Nox 900, and Legend on Minies. Right now focusing on getting half way proficient on the Axiom b4 the trips down.

So, please take your complaint directly to XP warranty support, if you are serious. This is not an XP customer support site.

Your take regarding XP being "in trouble" is just ridiculous, to be quite frank.

Just some specific and general commentary on this thread discussion… Chuck, I’m personally aving trouble visualizing your axis orientation descriptions above but I’m also just naturally challenged at visualizing 3D word problems, I guess. Specifically, your axis at coil terminology/descriptions, i.e., “pointing at” and “perpendicular to” the coil and “short side” and “long direction” are confusing to me when I consider the bullet’s shape and “in ground orientation” and the plane of the coil and the fact that a DD coil’s active detection “spine”, oriented roughly perpendicular to the sweep path. For example, a bullet could be oriented roughly vertical in ground (which is my interpretation of what you mean by the axis “pointed at” the coil, but that also means the the axis is “perpendicular” to the coil sweep plane). Explaining it with a reference to how the bullet would be oriented in the ground assuming a DD coil parallel to the ground perpendicular to the coil sweep path (assuming you were using the stock DD coil) or providing a simple diagram would help (see my crude cave drawing below). Also, a lot of discussion about air tests here and somebody mentioned that real world, in-ground detection depths would be less than air tests. You really can’t make a definitive statement like that because soil conditions (moisture, mineralization, and density) and how the soil responds to the detector’s particular operating frequency, and target characteristics can all contribute to make in ground detection depth performance exceed or be significantly less than measured in air tests. In general, highly mineralized ground will indeed show depth performance significantly less than air tests but this situation would also compress the difference in depth readings vs. the air tests, potentially rendering those differences insignificant. Example - an air test could show a minie ball for one set of conditions in air to be 14 inches and the other to be 12 inches. In hot ground, that might translate into 5 inches and 4.5 inches. Yes even half an inch is not insignificant (miss it by half an inch, miss it by a mile), but just noting that it’s always hard to draw hard and fast conclusions from air tests. Looking forward to what @Daniel Tn experiences in that bullet field with the T2. I am also a relic hunter and I could dig minie balls all day long (and have done so) with total enjoyment. But I love buttons, tokens, ID tags, Corps badges, coins (copper, brass, bronze, nickel, silver, and gold), brass knapsack and uniform accoutrements, belt and cartridge box plates, artillery projectiles, and even ferrous camp objects. I have found that optimizing my machine choice and setup around a specific target objective or test target type is mostly counter productive unless I am solely seeking that target type. Not saying this is the case, but that T2 may kill on lead minies but might turn out not being all that on buttons or other relics, for example, under certain conditions, because you are limited to a single frequency while dealing with an infinite number of variables. It is the reason I moved from single frequency, to selectable single frequency, and now to simultaneous Multifrequency and really haven’t looked back. Plus I subscribe to the @Steve Herschbach school of thought: VLF when you can, PI if you must. Yep, I still have my venerable MXT, F75, and a G2+. But that’s mostly nostalgia mixed with wanting to retain at least one machine that still accommodates concentric wound coils (which is why I did got rid of my T2). Though I haven’t used them for that reason for close to 5 years now. But this thread has tempted me to re-visit the F75 and consider marrying it up to Fisher’s latest coil just to see what it can do, perhaps even in my planned visits to Culpeper this month. Though to be honest, I’ll probably just run the Axiom and bring along my D2 in my day pack as a backup. Again, would like to hear how the T2 works out for Daniel on bullets and relics in general. I understand the desire to neck down to as few machines as needed, and for my part will start thinning the herd soon. GL. HH.

I also hope we don’t have to wait 3 more years for Coiltek coils for the Manticore like we had to wait for the Nox. I don’t know if ML realizes it or not (which makes me question their overall consumer business model savvy if they don’t), but simply striking a licensing deal for the embedded coil interface electronics with Coiltek for accessory coils in manner that enables Coiltek to release accessory coils for M-core in a time frame similar to or even faster than ML’s spool up of their own M-core accessory coils could actually tilt fence sitters into purchasing an M-core without ML having to invest any additional capital. Their track record of aloof behavior with respect to accessory coil options and availability from a customer demand perspective makes them appear to be blind to this fact. And I’m not just talking small circular coils, but an elliptical slightly bigger than what is presently envisioned would be welcomed by non-prospecting users to fill the remaining gap between the stock and the planned ML 8x5.5. A solid coil body or skid plate variant option would also be welcomed.

As far as complimenting the D2, Legend is not really going to bring anything to the table that you can’t already get with the 800. And to be frank, I really haven’t really seen the need to pull out the 800 or Legend much since I started swinging the D2 despite also owning the 10x5 coil for the 800 or the LG24 coil for Legend. If I was starting from scratch, I might go D2 + Legend for max value or D2 + Nox 900 or Manticore if price was no object. Now Legend might be worth it if your 800 is well beyond warranty, but like I said, if you are primarily swinging the D2, the 800 is fine and Legend will just be the competent shiny new toy but not a game changer. I find the Legend to be jam packed with great features and great ergonomics. But with that comes a less intuitive interface with a lot of secret key combinations to pull up the features they keep adding onto it and settings that you really need to understand because it is not clear that the added filters are necessarily optimal even if you just leave them at the defaults. Frustratingly, Nokta also decided to make the keypad matte black with raised matte black symbology marking the key functions. You will likely have to paint on highlights to make it easier to see the keypad key functions or get the Nokta protective cover that has the key pad symbols highlighted. Still learning the Legend and the new LG24 coil, but really haven’t clicked with it yet. I blame that mostly on the great success I am having with the D2 rather than any real shortcomings with the Legend. I am having the same lackluster bonding with my new Nox 900. They are each fine detectors, that are just both overshadowed by the D2 for what I do most, mid-Atlantic relic detecting and summer beach hunting. Just my 2 cents.