Equinox Software Update 3.0...

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey gang, a buddy and I got back from a turf hunt in San Francisco yesterday.  Him with his Nox 800 , with 3.0 update, and over a year now of experience under his belt.   And me, with my Exp . II.

In the past (10 months / year ago), I had spanked him on this section of turf @ 3x to 4x to 1 in oldies.  But we wrote that off to a variety of factors :  1) He was new to the Nox at that time  2) he was still experimenting with settings,  3) The nox appeared to suffer after 7am-ish, when the "city comes to life" (EMI) in the downtown-ish area we're in.  4) That Tom was more familiar with this particular turf and type-sounds to chase, etc....   

But now that he's had a year under his belt, and now that he has the 3.0 (which he'd read has claims to be able to better combat electrical noise interference ?) we went out for another re-match on this stretch.  

This time he had nothing but issues with the Nox ? Even starting at 1am (when the city is "sleeping"), his machine wouldn't settle down. Even dropping the sens down to rock-bottom lowest, you could STILL hear the un-ending chatter ?

When it came time to trade off flagged signals :  I would show him various wheaties and/or silver.  He could only pick them  up if he increased his sens. to moderately high levels.  Which, of course, left him helpless the moment he swung anywhere else (ie.: chatter and beeps everywhere else too) .  

Hence the duel went horribly.   The poor guy was shut down (he hadn't taken his SE  pro for this  trip).   And on the previous  trips last year, although he experienced chatter after 7am or so, yet  this time was totally worse.  The chatter was 2x as bad, and it existed no-matter-the-time of day.  So all he could deduce was that it had something to do with the 3.0    It didn't matter that he switched to multi-mode (such that he's not opting for any of the new features that 3.0 offers).  It is just something ingrained / hard-wired into the new update, that has now affected this EMI issue vulnerability. 

Final tallies were :  Him :  4 wheaties and a silver roosie.  Me:  24 wheaties, an IH, & 7 silvers  (6 silver dimes (mercs/roosies) and a war nickel).  

To be fair, we *could*  conclude that these horrible 3.0 results *only* manifest itself at *just* this one location.  We could try other parks in low-rise districts that don't have the cell/radio/electrical/EMI issue.  

And to be fair :  He kicked my B*tt , with his 800, earlier this year in a ghost-townsy iron-ridden  gold-rush location.  He was showing me signals that I had to admit I wouldn't have registered on -my-own.  Yet on his machine, they were coming in with "room-to-spare".   Yes,  the Exp. II is not renowned for target-see-through in iron ridden situations.  That's already a given.  A good turf machine, yes.  But a good iron-ridden ghost-town  machine :  No.  

[Raphis]

1 hour ago, Tom_in_CA said:

Hey gang, a buddy and I got back from a turf hunt in San Francisco yesterday.  Him with his Nox 800 , with 3.0 update, and over a year now of experience under his belt.   And me, with my Exp . II.

Tom, I’ve got a buddy that had his Nox for two years now, and he suffers terribly in finding deepie coin signals with either his Explorer SE or his Nox when the EMI is bad...here’s a perfect example of a situation/hunt where my Nox was spanking an Explorer SE......about a couple months ago, me, with my brand new Nox (only a few hrs under my belt) and my buddy with his trusted Explorer SE (years of hunts under his belt) are detecting in a high EMI zone...My buddy got so frustrated/aggravated that he couldn’t decipher a deep target in this section of park that day, while I was digging a 2 Rosie spill and other various deep wheats in this heavily pillaged Park.  The EMI at this site that day was pretty bad!  My buddy let me listen to the audio of his SE, and it was horrendous...even me, who has felt “at home” hunting deepies in EMI infested areas for years, would probably have had issues had I used his SE (or if I had brought my SE).  My Nox, on the other hand, was not nearly as noisy as his SE was...I was hunting in multi...this was before the V3 update had come out.

Quote

When it came time to trade off flagged signals :  I would show him various wheaties and/or silver.  He could only pick them  up if he increased his sens. to moderately high levels.  Which, of course, left him helpless the moment he swung anywhere else (ie.: chatter and beeps everywhere else too) .

The opposite happened to my buddy (SE) and me (Nox) that day I wrote about above....So, your Explorer was purring like a kitten the whole time during your hunt? Not a hint of EMI? What sensitivity were you using on your Exp?

Quote

So all he could deduce was that it had something to do with the 3.0    It didn't matter that he switched to multi-mode (such that he's not opting for any of the new features that 3.0 offers). 
 

I have been going back to sites where EMI was a real pain in the ass when I was using my SE. My other buddy (Jamflicker) had also experienced high EMI on his Etrac at these same zones at these sites we hunted together.   At most of these sites I’ve been hunting with my Nox now for the past couple of months, I’ve managed to pull many more silvers/wheats.

Quote

It is just something ingrained / hard-wired into the new update, that has now affected this EMI issue vulnerability. 
 

I doubt it...EMI is the variable!! It can be downright nasty at times, then somewhat manageable in the same area you’re hunting....

Quote

Final tallies were :  Him :  4 wheaties and a silver roosie.  Me:  24 wheaties, an IH, & 7 silvers  (6 silver dimes (mercs/roosies) and a war nickel).  

To be fair, we *could*  conclude that these horrible 3.0 results *only* manifest itself at *just* this one location.  We could try other parks in low-rise districts that don't have the cell/radio/electrical/EMI issue.  
 

Has there ever been a time at a site you’ve hunted where the EMI rendered your Explorer useless (even to you, being a master level Explorer hunter)?  Even though my Nox will snap, crackle, and pop due to uncontrollable EMI (no noise channel will squelch it, while in multi or single freq), I’m still able to decipher the deeper coin signals to the same abilities that I could when I used my SE all these years! I find myself doing noise cancels just as frequently with my Nox (maybe even more so because auto-noise cancel is so much better/faster on the Nox than it is on my SE).

[Tom_in_CA]

54 minutes ago, Raphis said:

   At most of these sites I’ve been hunting with my Nox, I’ve managed to pull many more silvers/wheats.
 

Dan you say :  "...this was before the V3 update had come out."

I'm glad you added this final sentence to your paragraph.  Because for a moment, I thought you were going to try to say that this duel-result would-be-the-same, regardless.  But since you added that last sentence :  Then I'll hold-open the hope that my buddy's horrible results were the result  of  the V3.

But this doesn't solve the dispute/debate on whether or not he can spank an Explorer, with NO v3 update.  All we can do is for him to take off the v3, and do  a re-match.  But at this point, it's sort of pointless.  As we are both now assuming that this area, is *simply*  not suitable for the Nox, no matter WHAT the settings, and no matter WHO the user is.   If you disagree, and think the Nox can spank the Explorer II here, then  bring it up ?

And I  don't doubt your personal tallies improved when you made the switch.  But .... I'm not so sure that the SE is the same as the II.   They had differences, as you  know.

You say :  ".....So, your Explorer was purring like a kitten the whole time during your hunt? Not a hint of EMI? What sensitivity were you using on your Exp?

Yes.  Stable.  But I suspect there was interference below the audio level.  Because sometimes a 6" deep wheatie or silver was "tough signals". And as you know, 6" is a cake-walk for explorers of any incarnation.   But on the other hand, no, no audible chatter.   

My  sens. level on the II was 18.   I'm not sure if that corresponds with the scale of the SE pro or not.   

You say:  ".... At most of these sites I’ve been hunting with my Nox, I’ve managed to pull many more silvers/wheats."

With this quote, I can imagine my friend "pulling his hair out".  It is what I predicted that , sure as heck, someone (with the V3 update, no less) could/would say "You're not doing it right", or "you must have the wrong settings", and "you need more practice".   Trust me:  For a good 5 hrs he tried everything in the book.  And to the extent that he could make one of my signals come in, yet, that was the moment that when he went to swing anywhere else, a symphony of chatter, that is indistinguishable from the signal he just coaxed out of my flagged spot.   Doh !  

So you would NOT be able to convince him that ANY Nox user (not even the mighty Dan) is going to magically come by and get a totally different result.   I would love to see my friend's face, when he reads this quote of yours.  

You say :  ".... I doubt it...EMI is the variable!! It can be downright nasty at times, then somewhat manageable in the same area you’re hunting...."

This is true.  There are times, at certain sites, where even something like my Exp. II just suffers, for seemingly no  reason.   Then another trip, I get deepies that present no problems.  Thus, sure, it's *possible* that it was just a fluke  night.  Like where someone in a nearby apartment left their blender or router/transmitter on, or the Muni bus line was doing electrical upgrades, blah blah.  Who knows ?   But .... at what point does anyone eliminate this as an excuse  ?  3 trips ?  4 trips ?  10 trips ?  At SOME point, 2 people are going to  have to conclude :  "This machine sucks  here", and "This machine will not spank  an Exp. here".

Yes this is not representative of all turf.  It could be a fluke (and exist 100% of the time there).  So to  be fair, my friend and I know a park in nearby Oakland, which is flush  with  easy pickens.  Albeit just 1940s/50s wheaties/silver (ugly orange wheaties, and common newer silver).   Perhaps my friend would want  a rematch there.  And in my experience, this park more accurately mimics low-rise anytown-USA type turf.    But better yet:  Get your  duff up here !  haha

You say :  " .... Has there ever been a time at a site you’ve hunted where the EMI rendered your Explorer useless (even to you, being a master level Explorer hunter)? "

I've been in places where I suspected that I was "not in tune" with the place.  Like ... I can't  find  silver to  save my life.  Might be the machine  (the Emi) at levels below audible.  Or it could be my personal mood.   But @ a single location, a freak event happened at a relicky site :   I started getting chatter, no matter what settings I chose.   Thus I assumed I must  have a frayed chord.  I hiked back to the truck, and made some coil swaps.  But the problem continued.  So I thought:  "Must be in the sun-ray  probe connections".  So I hiked the long way again, and swapped out the probe.  TO NO AVAIL.   Thus yes, something had happened on that singular night, that never before , and never since then, has repeated itself in that spot.   

Hence, yes, I  know what you're saying.   But at the spot in question for this topic :  It's an ongoing thing.   And only got worse once he put the v3 on there.

 

[Raphis]

29 minutes ago, Tom_in_CA said:

Dan you say :  "...this was before the V3 update had come out."

I'm glad you added this final sentence to your paragraph.  Because for a moment, I thought you were going to try to say that this duel-result would-be-the-same, regardless.  But since you added that last sentence :  Then I'll hold-open the hope that my buddy's horrible results were the result  of  the V3.

Tom, I’ve been hunting with V3 update a couple days after it got released, and I have not noticed anything different with my machine, with regards to EMI, than I did before the update !  

You’re making a false hypothesis in thinking V3 handles EMI worse than 2.1.12....with only a single hunt at your site.....even though your buddy’s Nox seemed to worsen while hunting the same spot as he did before hunting there....the “variable” that you will never be able to normalize for successive hunts there is the EMI, even at the same site hunting it 10x in a row!  If your buddy regresses back to 2.1.12 and hunts your spot in question 10 times, and all those 10 times the Nox is more manageable than that one hunt he did while using V3, then one may start to investigate if V3 did something with regards to frequency shifting in Multi, but I highly doubt this..

29 minutes ago, Tom_in_CA said:

But this doesn't solve the dispute/debate on whether or not he can spank an Explorer, with NO v3 update.  All we can do is for him to take off the v3, and do  a re-match.  But at this point, it's sort of pointless.

Has he “spanked” you before with his Nox in any turf???  

29 minutes ago, Tom_in_CA said:

As we are both now assuming that this area, is *simply*  not suitable for the Nox, no matter WHAT the settings, and no matter WHO the user is.   If you disagree, and think the Nox can spank the Explorer II here, then  bring it up ?

And I  don't doubt your personal tallies improved when you made the switch.  But .... I'm not so sure that the SE is the same as the II.   They had differences, as you  know.
 

Now you’re just being silly!!! ?  No Explorer II has an advantage over an SE Pro....in any turf!  Certainly, if I had found this to be true, are you saying I would have found 6000 silvers and 40,000 Wheats instead of 5000/30,000 that I found over my 13 years with my SE? ?. You will fail miserably in trying to convince me anything of the sort, so don’t even try to do that...?

29 minutes ago, Tom_in_CA said:

....6" is a cake-walk for explorers of any incarnation

My  sens. level on the II was 18.   I'm not sure if that corresponds with the scale of the SE pro or not.   
 

I never needed to run my Explorer over 23 sens (I did many comparisons on mybSE over the years on optimal sens), and rarely ran it below 17...

29 minutes ago, Tom_in_CA said:

You say:  ".... At most of these sites I’ve been hunting with my Nox, I’ve managed to pull many more silvers/wheats."

With this quote, I can imagine my friend "pulling his hair out".  It is what I predicted that , sure as heck, someone (with the V3 update, no less) could/would say "You're not doing it right", or "you must have the wrong settings", and "you need more practice".   Trust me:  For a good 5 hrs he tried everything in the book.  And to the extent that he could make one of my signals come in, yet, that was the moment that when he went to swing anywhere else, a symphony of chatter, that is indistinguishable from the signal he just coaxed out of my flagged spot.   Doh !  

So you would NOT be able to convince him that ANY Nox user (not even the mighty Dan) is going to magically come by and get a totally different result.   I would love to see my friend's face, when he reads this quote of yours.  

I wish your friend had been down here the day my buddy’s Explorer was “choking” on EMI , while my Nox was still able to pull oldies/deepies!  If I felt the Nox was anything “less” capable than my Explorer, I would have sold it in a heartbeat and continued using my vintage, trusted, beloved machine!  

29 minutes ago, Tom_in_CA said:

[Tom_in_CA]

14 minutes ago, Raphis said:

....the “variable” that you will never be able to normalize for successive hunts there is the EMI, even at the same site hunting it 10x in a row!  If your buddy regresses back to 2.1.12 and hunts your spot in question 10 times, and all those 10 times the Nox is more manageable than that one hunt he did while using V3, then one may start to investigate if V3 did something with regards to frequency shifting in Multi, but I highly doubt this..

I wish he/we had the liberty to  return 10x, to  determine "flukes" vs on-going-norm.   I know you're of the opinion that the susceptibility to EMI has NOT changed (ie.: become more vulnerable) with the V3.   But seems that others, on forum chit-chat, are not agreeing with this.  Seems that others say it makes the Nox more vulnerable.

But if you're right, and they're wrong, it's doubtful my friend will want to go back "10 times to confirm they're not 10 flukes in a row".  Because he's sickened after yesterday's results.  He probably hates the place by now  . Doh !  *At best* I can maybe get him to some other turf for some more re-matches/experiments.    But truth be told, he might  simply be more into relicky  sites and demolition.   He's not in love with turf as much as you and I enjoy turf (the strategy, the challenge, etc....)

 

14 minutes ago, Raphis said:

Has he “spanked” you before with his Nox in any turf???  

 

No.  No one has.  But then again, I've only hunted turf a few times with any Nox users.  And each time the "spankings" could be written off to other factors.  

Also, my primary hunting partner  (also a Nox fan) is simply not into turf.  He's a relicky-site guy (stage stops, etc...).  But on the other hand, he will swear up and down that the Nox will be superior in turf.  But I can't drag him out to "show me".  Because A) he's not a turf hunter, and B) he would summarily write-off any differences to skill-level in that venue.   Both  are understandable excuses.   So the jury is still out.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Raphis said:

Now you’re just being silly!!! ?  No Explorer II has an advantage over an SE Pro....in any turf!  Certainly, if I had found this to be true, are you saying I would have found 6000 silvers and 40,000 Wheats instead of 5000/30,000 that I found over my 13 years with my SE? ?. You will fail miserably in trying to convince me anything of the sort, so don’t even try to do that...?

I never needed to run my Explorer over 23 sens (I did many comparisons on mybSE over the years on optimal sens), and rarely ran it below 17...

I wish your friend had been down here the day my buddy’s Explorer was “choking” on EMI , while my Nox was still able to pull oldies/deepies!  If I felt the Nox was anything “less” capable than my Explorer, I would have sold it in a heartbeat and continued using my vintage, trusted, beloved machine!  

 

Dan, If you think the SE and the II are identical in ability, then you are breaking ranks with many long-time respected Explorer experts.   Like our mutual friend Ron.   The SE takes more coaxing to get a TID.   Whereas the II tends to get to the hint on the "first pass over it".   We can agree to disagree on this.  

 

And no, I don't doubt your tallies.  So-too is there no doubt someone out there with an Ace 250, who can likewise boast astounding results.   But we both know that we would not attribute it to the machine.  We'd attribute it to skill of user , and locations of hunts.  

 

So I say that I don't disagree with your observation of Nox vs SE in turf.  But that's not because I think "the Nox beats Exp. in turf".  It's because I have never much cared for the SE.   But as you say, it's no  use us debating this.  We can agree to disagree.    All I can say is, that if you a)  maintain that yesterday  was a fluke  (which perhaps it was),  and b) On another day, the interference won't be there,  and c) that if Dan were there "on those non-fluke days", that the Nox can spank an Exp. II, then :   This is totally flying in the face of our 3 to 4 attempts here.  And while it's true that on those earlier trips he was a Nox-rookie, yet :  We were doing flagged comparisons.  NOT "end tally counts".  So when persons are doing flagged signal comparisons, ..... where they have ample time to try every trick in the book over known spots, then :  NO amount of added time/experience is going to  change that result.

 

But let's cut the chase:  This  could be an isolated type of mineralization and/or EMI (that exists 100% of the time) that is unique to  that zone.   If you disagree, then  :  Git  your  b*tt up here ?  It's only a 6 hr. drive ?  

 

PS:  Also I forgot  to  note on the previous post that there was a singular half-block section yesterday, where all of the sudden my explorer was stuttering/static as well.  But I noticed when I walked a bit further away, it started purring again.   Versus my Nox friend, who had stutter NO MATTER WHERE HE WALKED. 

 

[Raphis]

56 minutes ago, Tom_in_CA said:

   But truth be told, he might  simply be more into relicky  sites and demolition.   He's not in love with turf as much as you and I enjoy turf (the strategy, the challenge, etc....)

Also, my primary hunting partner  (also a Nox fan) is simply not into turf.  He's a relicky-site guy (stage stops, etc...).  But on the other hand, he will swear up and down that the Nox will be superior in turf. 

If someone hasn’t been pounding turf as long as you have with your Explorer, no machine/person is gonna “spank” you! ?

Thats like asking some amateur to get in the ring with Mike Tyson!  Not a very smart move!

Hunting trashy/EMI infested turf isn’t for everyone...it requires years of patience, persistence, perseverance to become “One” with the turf to pop out oldies/deepies beyond mere mortals!! ???

Quote

Dan, If you think the SE and the II are identical in ability, then you are breaking ranks with many long-time respected Explorer experts.   Like our mutual friend Ron.   The SE takes more coaxing to get a TID.   Whereas the II tends to get to the hint on the "first pass over it".   We can agree to disagree on this.  

I would agree with you that an original SE with stock “slimline” coil was insubordinate to that same SE with a ML Pro Coil, or even the original 1050 Explorer II coil, but that’s as far as I will concede.

Quote

And no, I don't doubt your tallies.  So-too is there no doubt someone out there with an Ace 250, who can likewise boast astounding results.   But we both know that we would not attribute it to the machine.  We'd attribute it to skill of user , and locations of hunts.  

Hunting down here in our So Cal trashy parks with with a person who has used an Ace 250 for 10 years would not bag you more oldies than a person who has hunted 10 years down here with a Minelab machine...and if one remained hard-headed and didn’t want to switch to a Minelab machine where I hunt, sure, you would get a few oldies here and there, but it won’t even be close to the same person with the same time put in with a Minelab Explorer, SE, Etrac, CTX l, etc....49 out of my 50 buddies who hunt turf here over the past 13 years use a Minelab machine to hunt turf.

Quote

PS:  Also I forgot  to  note on the previous post that there was a singular half-block section yesterday, where all of the sudden my explorer was stuttering/static as well.  But I noticed when I walked a bit further away, it started purring again.   Versus my Nox friend, who had stutter NO MATTER WHERE HE WALKED. 

 

EMI tolerance from one treasure hunter to another is definitely not equal!! Some hunters can definitely hunt in higher EMI than others can!  The brain of one hunter can still tell target from false signal at much higher noise levels than another hunter can...

[Tom_in_CA]

22 minutes ago, Raphis said:

If someone one hasn’t been pounding turf as long as you have with your Explorer, no machine/person is gonna “spank” you! ?

Thats like asking some amateur to get in the ring with Mike Tyson!  Not a very smart move!

Hunting trashy/EMI infested turf isn’t for everyone...it requires years of patience, persistence, perseverance to become “One” with the turf to pop out oldies/deepies beyond mere mortals!! ???

Dan, as I said, I would agree with chalking up differences to "experience", if the only thing the 2 guys did is to compare end of the day tallies.  BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.  We're talking flagged signals.  Where NO amount of added time and added years of experience will change a signal that's simply not there in the first place.  And/or that no amount of control configurations make the signal sound any  different than the static and shallow trash you're wanting to pass.    My friend *could * sometimes bring-in the flagged target.  But then he'd be brutally honest and admit that once he toyed with the settings to get it, that it rendered the machine a noisy useless heap elsewhere.

And trust me:  He's been on forums for the past year reading anything and everything he can about the pros & con's of every setting.   And he did quite well (spanked me) with his Nox in a Gold rush  relicky site.  Him and Greg. S (whom you know ) kicked my b*tt with their Nox's, in THAT type venue.   But I have yet to see it happen in turf.  ( Greg S has moved out of CA as of a few weeks ago, if you haven't heard. )

 

22 minutes ago, Raphis said:

I would agree with you that an original SE with stock “slimline” coil was insubordinate to that same SE with a ML Pro Coil, or even the original 1050 Explorer II coil, but that’s as far as I will concede.

 

No. I'm referring to the SE with the pro coil.  Not that original lemon coil

 

22 minutes ago, Raphis said:

Hunting down here in our So Cal trashy parks with with a person who has used an Ace 250 for 10 years would not bag you more oldies than a person who has hunted 10 years down here with a....

Don't get "lost in the example".  I was only referring to your citing your tallies, as somehow being proof of an authoritative voice on this latest matter of Exp. vs Nox in turf.   For example, you've noticed that in manufacturer advertisements, sure enough they can find someone, who's used their machine, that has a DAZZLING table display.   Yet  as you know :  That alone does not automatically mean :  "Therefore That machine spanks all others".  It merely means that single guy did good with that machine.     

And yes, Minelabs have taken over the market (in probably most states by now).  20+ yrs. ago, in a group hunt of 30 people here in CA, you'd see a variety of Whites, Fisher, Garrett, Tesoro, and Minelab, eh ?   And now, 20 yrs. later, what do you see ?  95% of them will be swinging Minelabs.  Doh !

 

22 minutes ago, Raphis said:

EMI tolerance from one treasure hunter to another is definitely not equal!! Some hunters can definitely hunt in higher EMI than others can!  The brain of one hunter can still tell target from false signal at much higher noise levels than another hunter can...

 

I can only imagine my friend tearing his hair out if he reads this paragraph.   Because ... Dan ... we're not talking "mere tolerance to some chatter" here.   He pulled his headphone jack out to  let me hear what he was hearing.  And  there is no way in h#ll that any hunter can hunt (and get any depth on hard-targets) with that sort of chatter.     Something was/is definitely wrong, that is WELL BEYOND mere "tolerance" and "experience" levels.

The problem with you potentially coming up , to try this exact area, is that if the same thing happens to you too, you can write it off as an isolated fluke, on *just* that night or day.   It would be inconclusive, to where no-amount of getting spanked would  convince you.   I'd certainly love to try it though.  And from there, no shortage of other turf within 30 min. drive, with totally different flavors.

[GB_Amateur]

I've spent 14.5 hours in the field with the new update (3.1.3) for my Minelab Equinox 800.  The previous ~200 hours of detecting with the Eqx were done using the v2.x update and I really hit it off with that one.  Besides this field work I also did some test gardening, swapping between these two latest versions.  I'll start with my experiences in the field.

All tests (except some in the test garden which will be pointed out explicitly) were Park 1, custom 5 tones, Ground ('grab') Balanced, auto Noise cancelled, Iron Bias F2=0 (except as noted, and only applicable in simultaneous Multi-Frequency), recovery speed = 5, all three tone setting options customized, no discrimination segments excluded (what I call "wide open").  Most of these field tests were performed with Sensitivity set at 22.  I did try sensitivity 23 for a couple hours, not noticing much difference in anything, before returning to my standard 22.  Stock 11" coil, frequent use of built in pinointing circuitry, frequent check of strength ("depth") guage, frequent viewing of digital TID reading after pinpointing.  I was mostly using my standard searching and mental discriminating practices.  Exception was the use of Profile for target investigation which I set up identically to my main program except in 4 kHz instead of Multi.  Lately, prior to installing update v3.x, I've been using Profile set identically except with F2=9, also just for target investigation.  All searching is done in MF with F2=0.

Under the conditions above (important as possibly some of these 'stability improvements' Minelab vaguely tells us about might be specific to certain modes, and I'm only running Park 1) I didn't notice any differences between the 3.x version and the 2.x version running MF.  There may have been some subtle ones that I didn't notice.  If so maybe I'll pick up on those in the future

4 kHz was a different story, not surprisingly.  Here are some things I noticed in the field when investigating a target using 4 kHz which I had already located in MF:

1) In (only) one situation I actually got worse EMI noise while in 4 kHz than in MultiFrequency.  I was ~30 m from some above ground (~10 m high) power lines.  I should have looked for a transformer but didn't.  The remainded of my time in the field I didn't notice any appreciable EMI noise at either MF or 4 kHz -- reminder I was running sensitivity = 22.

2) The digital TID's were sometimes consistent between MF and 4 kHz, but those tended to be the shallow targets -- less than ~2 inches deep.  Most of the time (deeper targets) when I saw a difference the dTID was higher in 4 kHz, but it varied from a couple ticks up to as many as ~20.  Among the most striking were partially rusted crown caps (the only kind I find) reading ~13-14 in MF and 26-30 (typically) at 4 kHz.  Summary - it appeard to me that both depth of target and conductivity of target led to these differences.

3) USA 5 cent ('nickel') coins get special mention.  When close to the surface they would TID about the same in the two frequencies (12-13 typ.) but as they got deeper they got weak in 4 kHz and in some cases gave TID's in the low single digits!  It's well known that low operating frequencies aren't ideal for our 25% Ni, 75% coin and this further emphasizes that.

4) Digital TID's tended to be tighter in MF than in 4 kHz for most targets, and that includes our USA clad coinage (dTID's ~25 and up in MF).  BTW, I haven't measured the Fe3O4 level at this site but I don't expect it to be much different than my 2-3 bars (Fisher Gold Bug and F75 readings) in my back yard.  I like to call this 'moderate' mineralization -- somewhere between Florida beach and Western USA strongly magnetic ground.

Now for my backyard runs in my test stand.  I was swapping updates (v2.x and v3.x) between tests to confirm what I perceived to be experiencing.  One thing that was quite noticeable was that I could raise the sensitivity to as high as 24 and the detector remained EMI quiet at 4 kHz, but in MF I could only run quietly up to sensitivity 20.  (This latter is typical of my back yard experience.)  I did not see any change in the MF EMI sensitivity between versions.  I have two buried targets -- 6 inch deep nickel and 5 inch deep 95% copper Memorial penny.  Consistent with my in the field experience, at 4 kHz I could barely get a ratty, low dTID signal for the nickel.  The penny seemed pretty consistent in signal strength between 4 kHz and MF (v3.x update) as I raised the coil above ground.  I am going to repeat that test more carefully as I did perceive a difference, but I need to do some better measurements.

For my variable depth 'shotgun' test-stand I set up the following:

Using MultiFrequency, regardless of version (2.x or 3.x) and regardless of recovery speed (varied between 5 and 8 ) I was unable to separate the two targets swinging the coil in the y-direction (see small coordinate system indicators at top of sketch).  But swinging in the x-direction, in MultiFrequency, the closest I could get to the pulltab to pick up the dime vTID with the coil centered along the red line labeled '(MF)'.  In 4 kHz I could get an extra inch closer -- swinging coil center along red line labeled '(4 kHz)' -- before I lost the dime's vTID, replaced by the pulltab's TID.  I realize this property of separation capability vs. target strength is nothing new.   It's just something I never thought about before.

Conclusions:  In my ground, Park 1 mode, and specific settings outlined above, I didn't notice any changes in MultiFrequency between v2.x and v3.x.  The new 4 kHz is certainly EMI quieter in my back yard than MF.  It also has some advantage in separating ability as shown in my rigged setup illustrated above.  Its digital TID drift and poor performance on deeper nickels means for me it likely is a feature that I will use only in special circumstances.

I will add more in the future if I find other differences.  Most of the time I'll be in the field, but I'll do a bit more test stand/garden checking, particularly comparing MF vs. 4 kHz on my 5 inch deep copper Memorial penny.  For now I'm sticking with the new v3.1.3 except possibly in my test stand/garden investigations.

[Raphis]

59 minutes ago, Tom_in_CA said:

I can only imagine my friend tearing his hair out if he reads this paragraph.   Because ... Dan ... we're not talking "mere tolerance to some chatter" here.   He pulled his headphone jack out to  let me hear what he was hearing.  And  there is no way in h#ll that any hunter can hunt (and get any depth on hard-targets) with that sort of chatter.     Something was/is definitely wrong, that is WELL BEYOND mere "tolerance" and "experience" levels.

The problem with you potentially coming up , to try this exact area, is that if the same thing happens to you too, you can write it off as an isolated fluke, on *just* that night or day.   It would be inconclusive, to where no-amount of getting spanked would  convince you.   I'd certainly love to try it though.  And from there, no shortage of other turf within 30 min. drive, with totally different flavors.

Tom, in my past 13 years of hunting a thousand parks/sites with my Explorer SE here in CA, I have only come across maybe 3-4 zones/areas within these sites where no amount of “tinkering” with my machine would allow me to hunt, given my ultra high EMI tolerance....that’s it!  An extremely infinitesimal statistic!  It’s a “way of life” down here to hunt many old, inner city, blighted parks with ratchety sounding EMI...and so far, in all the sites I have hunted with my Nox (which happens to be spots that I have hunted countless times in the past with my Explorer), I have not noticed any worse conditions while using my Nox!  In fact, I would say the Nox allows me to hunt some areas with less bothersome EMI than I had while hunting with my Explorer....I think this is because of the advantage of the Nox’s ability to lower the ferrous volume (in addition to very low non-ferrous signal volume), while hunting all metal (wide open)....Something you couldn’t do with the FBS machines....

......but if, as you say “there would be no way in hell that “any” hunter could hunt in that type of noise”  you heard in your buddy’s headphones, then I have no explanation for you...maybe I would then have to bump up by 1 my infinitesimally small occurrence of unhuntable ground since I’ve been hunting with ML machines