Manticore Discrimination Capabilities

[GB_Amateur]

5 hours ago, PSPR said:

Wow!  GB_Amateur I hope I didn't post a video in the Minelab section I shouldn't have.  I didn't mean to upset you or anyone else.

You didn't upset me.  His video did, but that wasn't your fault.  (Not a big deal having posted it in the Minelab sub-forum.)  I happen to be sensitive to misinformation and that's what this video represents.  The bottom line is many of his aluminum targets could have been non-symmetric jewelry yet he acts so proud of himself that he calls them aluminum and gets them right.  If you want to be right 99% of the time then just call these signals aluminum because that's in the ballpark of the ratio of gold jewelry to aluminum:  1 to 99.  (It's probably worse, actually.)

Sorry if I took this out on you.

6 hours ago, PSPR said:

I've got my order in for the Manticore but I'm feeling a dearth of information/testing of the machine coming out of Minelab.  I guess I'm feeling we are not being given information many of us need to make an informed decision and I'm wondering why.  I wish they would put a couple Manticores in dealers hands for testing but I guess that isn't how a new model release works.

We actually have some good information on the Manticore because ML sent one of the design engineers (whose also a detectorist) to Europe for two weeks and explained how it works, particularly where improvements have been made over the Equinox.  He accompanied several locals in different parts of Europe when they hunted with it and explained what they were seeing.  This is more than we got before the Equinox was released (at least as I remember).  The Legend had less exposure, too.  The pre-release public testing of the Deus 2 was a bit better than those two but the problem was that one of those testers was as biased as they come.  (Another wasn't so his videos were meaningful.)  IMO it's not that easy to find objective, knoweldgeable dealers, either.  (One obvious exception here but I don't need to name names.) 

The other thing is that even the most expert user (hard to be an expert on a new detector without quite a bit of time in the field anyway) is that he's one person with his own detecting style and expertise and his particular sites with their type and distribution of trash, good targets -- both at particular depth distributions -- and specific mineralization.  It really takes several reliable testers who have had the instrument in their hands for ~100 hours to really get a good cross section of user reviews to make a decision, and even then it may not be obvious if it's going to produce enough at your own particular sites to be worth the cost compared to competition and/or the detector you already have.

The advantage a lot of us here in North America have is that winter is approaching so if we can get some reviews by the warm weather detectorists (e.g. Australians and warm weather residents here) then by the time the ground thaws we'll have some decent info.  I'm on the list also as life is getting short and I really like what I see.  I know the Equinox pretty well and this looks like a very similar interface that I should have little trouble working with.  Finding the optimal settings for my sites will certainly take a while but that will be true whether I get it early or wait awhile.  I'm aware of the possibility (which I think is small) that it won't provide me anything more in my present and future sites than what the Equinox is already capable of.  I'm willing to take that chance.

It's a decision for everyone and unless people are skipping the house payment or Christmas gifts, probably not going to make a major impact whether s/he jumps at first chance or waits for more (reliable) info to arrive.

[F350Platinum]

To discriminate aluminum trash in many of the places I hunt, both the D2 and the Equinox offer some mechanisms. On the D2 the depth "gauge" is fairly good, the XY screen helps, and in full tones the depth is illustrated by signal strength. Lifting the coil is how I find gold with either, gold will disappear while a pull tab will continue to assert itself ? Relics are going to be deeper.

Same applies to the Equinox, except it's a bit more limited. I just watch the depth gauge and lift. I usually run in "all metal" all the time on both. Again relics are deeper.

I fear the same for the M-core, it's not gonna have any magical qualities. ? Apparently it incorporates stuff from previous higher end machines like the CTX, which is before my time.

This is more of a comparison topic, but I'm responding to the last few posts.

[PSPR]

Thank, GB.  Yeah, I didn't watch close enough to realize he was using a Deus 1 I was just excited to see someone at least claiming to be able to recognize pull tabs.

Thanks for the additional information on the Manticore, that's the sort of stuff I'm looking for.  Minelab seems to release some info then wait a month then release some more then wait a month.......  I'm hoping by the end of November they have a release date for us but I may be dreaming.

I looked around a little more this evening and found three other videos that use the Nox and offer up some possible methods to identify pull tabs, caps and trash.  These guys don't seem to be experts but they seem to have a couple good ideas they've probably gotten from others that might help without giving up on the gold.  Maybe these are similar to the methods you are already using, GB. 

When I do get a Manticore shipped to me I'll be experimenting with these ideas as I learn the Manticore.  Maybe the target trace will provide more info than I'm currently expecting with that regard.  Here are the videos.  The third video doesn't get to the ID part until about 6:07.

 

 

[PSPR]

Oops.  Didn't get the link copied to my clipboard properly on the 3rd video.  Here it is.

 

[strick]

What everyone has said so far...the technology is not there yet to discriminate out aluminum tabs. Detecting is a mental game. If you go out detecting and tell yourself I'm going to not dig aluminum today.....just gold and silver..and just to prove it to myself I'm going to dig what I know are pieces of aluminum...so I dig 10 targets that I thought were aluminum before I even dug them.. and of course the odds were in my favor because there is way more aluminum in the environment then there is gold...so you tell yourself... see I'm right I'm not digging that stuff...so you end up dig mostly quarters, dimes and memorial pennies maybe you get lucky once in a while and get a silver ring...and you wonder why you never get any gold...

Two quick examples...

1. On a recent prospecting trip I dug what sounded like a square nail with my 6000. I was dead tired but dug it anyways...turned out to be a nice heart shaped nugget right at 3 grams. 

2. On a recent beach hunt I got a scratchy 8 on the equinox. Thats in the beaver tail/ foil range..I was reluctant but dug it anyways and it turned out to be a nice gold pendant. 

Sometimes your better off digging what you don't know then what you know. 

strick 

[PSPR]

44 minutes ago, strick said:

What everyone has said so far...the technology is not there yet to discriminate out aluminum tabs. Detecting is a mental game. If you go out detecting and tell yourself I'm going to not dig aluminum today.....just gold and silver..and just to prove it to myself I'm going to dig what I know are pieces of aluminum...so I dig 10 targets that I thought were aluminum before I even dug them.. and of course the odds were in my favor because there is way more aluminum in the environment then there is gold...so you tell yourself... see I'm right I'm not digging that stuff...so you end up dig mostly quarters, dimes and memorial pennies maybe you get lucky once in a while and get a silver ring...and you wonder why you never get any gold...

Two quick examples...

1. On a recent prospecting trip I dug what sounded like a square nail with my 6000. I was dead tired but dug it anyways...turned out to be a nice heart shaped nugget right at 3 grams. 

2. On a recent beach hunt I got a scratchy 8 on the equinox. Thats in the beaver tail/ foil range..I was reluctant but dug it anyways and it turned out to be a nice gold pendant. 

Sometimes your better off digging what you don't know then what you know. 

strick 

I get you point, strick.  While everything you say is true, I think it will depend upon the location.  Some places are not suitable to dig dozens of holes while other places, like the beach, it is just a matter of putting in the effort to scoop the targets.

[GB_Amateur]

10 hours ago, PSPR said:

Thank, GB.

You're welcome.  I am trying to be helpful but sometimes I go a bit deep in my 'critiques'.  I don't watch hardly any detecting videos anymore.  It's kind of like the needle in a haystack situation where you have to wade through so many (and they usually last 15-20 minutes each) to find one that is worthwhile (for what I'm interested in).

My dig/no tricks are only for USA nickels, not jewelry.  I only use them when the primary signal strength is 3 bars or less, which depending upon soil moisture is 4-5 inches or less in my sites.  As coins get deeper the dTID spreads out which is which leads to my signal strength limit.

I used to be less selective, particularly when learning a new detector (and from the sidebar you can see I've done a lot of that.  ?)  I can add a bit more in agreement with what strick just posted.  Since I've concentrated on old coin hunting (which is what gets me excited, not jewelry) and gotten more selective in the dTID ranges I dig, my gold jewelry count has pretty much dropped to zero.  I still find silver jewelry (which my wife prefers anyway) because unless small, that shows up 20 and above on the Eqx (approx. zinc pennies and above).

My old-coin selection criteria only apply to sites which were first frequented in the 20th Century.  If 19th Century, small coins (both composition 3 centers, silver 5 centers, gold coins) are possible I dig everything above 6 (so I will notice the nickel 5 cent piece in the 7-9 dTID region).  Indian Head cents can fall in the grey zone at the zinc penny edge and I've probably missed a few of those with my strict cutoff (dig 20, don't dig 19).  If I think IHC's are likely I'll often drop that to dig 19, but even then I'll be missing the 12% nickel (pre-1865) version.

[PSPR]

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

You're welcome.  I am trying to be helpful but sometimes I go a bit deep in my 'critiques'.  I don't watch hardly any detecting videos anymore.  It's kind of like the needle in a haystack situation where you have to wade through so many (and they usually last 15-20 minutes each) to find one that is worthwhile (for what I'm interested in).

My dig/no tricks are only for USA nickels, not jewelry.  I only use them when the primary signal strength is 3 bars or less, which depending upon soil moisture is 4-5 inches or less in my sites.  As coins get deeper the dTID spreads out which is which leads to my signal strength limit.

I used to be less selective, particularly when learning a new detector (and from the sidebar you can see I've done a lot of that.  ?)  I can add a bit more in agreement with what strick just posted.  Since I've concentrated on old coin hunting (which is what gets me excited, not jewelry) and gotten more selective in the dTID ranges I dig, my gold jewelry count has pretty much dropped to zero.  I still find silver jewelry (which my wife prefers anyway) because unless small, that shows up 20 and above on the Eqx (approx. zinc pennies and above).

My old-coin selection criteria only apply to sites which were first frequented in the 20th Century.  If 19th Century, small coins (both composition 3 centers, silver 5 centers, gold coins) are possible I dig everything above 6 (so I will notice the nickel 5 cent piece in the 7-9 dTID region).  Indian Head cents can fall in the grey zone at the zinc penny edge and I've probably missed a few of those with my strict cutoff (dig 20, don't dig 19).  If I think IHC's are likely I'll often drop that to dig 19, but even then I'll be missing the 12% nickel (pre-1865) version.

Thanks again, GB.  I don't mind hunting coins.  Silver and gold coins are great.  I don't even mind digging up clad.

Here in Texas there is a lot of history.  But the Texas Historical Commission thinks they own everything not on private property.  They even got a law passed that anything over 100 years old dug up in a park, etc. is theirs.  I'm not sure how they enforce that.  Also, the law here says state parks are off limits but state property that is not a park or historical site is OK.  Rivers and streams seem to be one of the most promising state properties to hunt.   Most cities and towns let you hunt their parks, too, although you run into people now and then who don't like it.  Lake beaches are also open so long as it isn't in a state park.

I think I'm going to have to figure out how to cultivate some good private properties if I am going to metal detect consistently.  I think the trend is to search on private property.  

[CoinShooter1]

 

I do not expect the Manticore  to be able to 100% positively identify a pull tab from  a gold or silver ring. 

I believe the increase in the  ID numbers (0 to 99), will be a tremendous asset, compared to the already great Equinox.

I also believe the 2D screen will  give a rough idea as to the shape of the target.

Those 2 features alone,  should be enough information to differentiate a pull tab from a ring or coin SOME of the time.
But I do not expect it to magically make digging a bad target obsolete. 

I suppose its all about realistic expectations with the information that the 2D screen provides.

If the 2D screen provides useful information as to the shape of an target, I believe we will have another great product from Minelab!