A Few Observations On The Manticore, After About 50 Hours (and A Few Recent Nice Finds)...

[RSmith]

I am having the same issue as Steven. I have 211 hours on my Manticore. I did do the update and I have Equinox 800 that I have been using for many years. Before the update in my soil the Equinox 800 would go deeper and with better sound. The Manticore would false on every iron and even just dirt at times.

Since the update the Manticore will hit a little deeper than the Equinox 800. However I am not having the great experience with the stabilizer as most are. In my soil (maybe my machine is bad?) using the stabilizer, it degrades the sound of coins but does nothing on the false. 
to test this further I buried a dime 5.5 inches (that is as deep as I could go and still detect it). I also buried (at 5.5 inches) a rusted bolt with nut on it that tricked me earlier that day at the park. 
1- with filter off—- raising the stabilizer from 0 - 12 my dime would go from a good signal and get worse - to no signal at 11 —— BUT the false on the bolt would be the same all the way from 0 thru 12, it would sound like a good target the whole time. 
2- with filter on —- both the dime and false on the bolt would sodium’s good at 0, but starting at 1 they both would degrade equally getting worse as I went up until around 7 they both were gone. 
 

I was using AT-HC noise cancel- ground balance- sensitivity as high as I could without chatter- 1 region all tones-normal /simple- ferrous limits 8/3

RSmith

[Yatahaze323]

Check out this video on the Stabilizer, it described how it functions pretty well.

 

[steveg]

On 7/25/2023 at 4:55 PM, TampaBayBrad said:

Doesn't sound like you and Manti are getting along Steve. Sounds like you wished you never broke up with the 800. I respect your opinion, maybe some more time will allow you to figure her out. I'm a beach guy, so I don't see what you dirt guys are seeing on the false front working around a bunch of iron all the time. 

Brad,

Thanks for the kind words!

Yes, I will admit that the 800 can just "find stuff," period, and it's a much easier machine to both learn, and to decipher audibly.  I do believe that with more time on the machine, I'll understand the audio better, for sure.  But, I am having a hard time imagining that it will become as "second-nature" for me to hunt with, as the EQX 800 became.  For me, the Equinox was FUN to hunt with, and the MC is definitely more "tedious," at this point.  But, again, there's no doubt it's finding me stuff...so it's an interesting dilemma...

I think there is NO doubt that the machine is MUCH more pleasant to deal with, for you beach guys.  I have not heard a single beach hunter with anything but praise for this machine.  But get it in mineralized dirt, where there are a bunch of targets including old/rusty nails, and -- at least as a new user -- you have a headache on your hands!

Steve

[steveg]

On 7/25/2023 at 5:14 PM, Dug D said:

Hello Steve, you have perfectly documented my exact experience with the MC, prior to update.

I have more than 50 hr in for sure and have now updated, since the update my depth arrows seem to be not even close (like 3 or 4 arrows for a 2 to 3 inch coin) and overall depth seems to be less, but more testing/comparison needs to be done. 

I am glad its not just me with how you described your first 50hr. 

thanks🙂 

Dug D -- 

Thanks for confirming the things I'm experiencing.  No, it's not "just you;" this machine will audibly fatigue you to death, when there is rusty iron in the dirt.  

I have hope, though.  I can say that by the end of my vacation, I felt MUCH more comfortable with it than I did early in the trip.  Part of that was that the first hunt of the trip was in AWFUL dirt; I was about to put the unit up for sale after that hunt!  But, after taking it to some sites I was familiar with, from past hunts, it allowed me to compare its behavior to how the Equinox behaved on these sites.  That was VERY helpful, and helped me to begin building some confidence.  I hope the confidence building can continue, gradually, as I invest more hours on it...

Steve

[steveg]

On 7/25/2023 at 5:41 PM, fishersari said:

I got the same problems as you describe when I use AT HC, now in iron patches I use AT LC. The stabilizer didn't help much in iron situations too because I need to stop and sweeps the target multiple times to properly trigger the stabilizer.. 

fishersari --

YES.  ATHC is definitely the worst, in my dirt, when there are nails in the ground.  And YES, very early on with the machine, I was forced to "cry uncle," in ATHC, and found that switching to ATLC improved the situation significantly.  So I agree with you.

On this trip, I tried a middle ground -- All-Terrain General.  More falsy than ATLC, but much less-so, than ATHC.  I will continue to push forward, trusting that with time, my ears and brain will get used to how the Manticore likes to "speak."  It's certainly got its own language...

Steve

[steveg]

On 7/25/2023 at 5:53 PM, Chesroy said:

I have not heard one person say that the Manticore is a brilliant machine or have said that they are blown away by it. I have owned one and then sold it as I was not impressed(I dont beach hunt but I do take onboard that the Manticore is great on the beach), I did however intend to buy again if improvements after an update were noteworthy and if a module was made available. 

Today I spoke at length with 2 dealers in the UK regarding customer feedback and their take on the Equinox 900 and Manticore as my desire to buy a new Minelab to replace my 800 and have a new toy to play with still burns within me. 

The 800 is a great machine and it never fails to suprise me with what it uncovers. Anyhow both dealers said that they and their customers  concluded that the 900 basically was a hardware upgrade and was a little better in and around iron and the Manticore was noisey and chatty with posibly a little more depth, however they felt the price tag for the minimal amount of improvement over the 800 was not justified. 

Both dealers basically advised me to save my money as the 800 was still a great machine(I knew that anyhow) and can still hold its own. 

Chesroy,

I HAVE heard many beach hunters who are REALLY pleased with the machine, as you alluded to.  But -- all the dirt hunters that I trust, have struggled with it.  I heard someone (Jeff McClendon, I think it may have been) compare this unit to a high-gain single-freq. VLF, in terms of all the noise, and I have to agree.  I recall back when I started really getting serious about this hobby, and "upgraded" to a Fisher F-70 (a "little brother" of the F-75).  That machine drove me absolutely nuts -- SO much noise, SO many tones, and...for me anyway...very limited ability to figure out what was under my coil at any given time.  I can still remember the absolute, 180-degree turn-around, when I ditched that unit and got an Explorer (SE-Pro).  I IMMEDIATELY realized that I had entered a whole different world, and within a couple of weeks, the situation entirely changed for me.  YES, it took a long time to master the Explorer, but my "understanding" of the audio and what it represented, was almost immediately just night-and-day different, from the chatty/poor ID unit that I found the F-70 to be.  

Well, with the Manticore, I've been similarly frustrated at times, as I was way back when running that old F-70, and at times JUST as uncertain as to what was under my coil, as I was all those years ago.  It's been a LONG time since I flushed those memories from my mind, and did NOT expect that the Manticore would dredge them back up!

But, like I said, I feel much better about the machine now, than at the start of my trip.  So, I'll hang in there.  The 800 is -- as you said -- SUCH a great machine, and for me it's like putting on a nice pair of cushiony running shoes.  It's just COMFORTABLE, and it's fun, and it flat out finds stuff.  Meanwhile, the Manticore remains like that new pair of stiff leather golf shoes...that...while you keep on wearing them because you appreciate that the spikes that keep your feet from slipping, at the same time, you sure do hate the cramped/sore feet you get after playing a round in them.  I have that same "love/hate" relationship going on, with the Manticore...and I sure am tempted to put on those nice, cushiony EQX 800 running shoes again!

Steve

[steveg]

On 7/25/2023 at 6:37 PM, GB_Amateur said:

Nice condition on the 1876, Steve.  The 1837 is considerably lower mintage but the condition wipes that out in terms of value. 

I felt on one early hunt that falsing was worse in All Terrain High Conductors than other AT modes.  (Personally I'd go to General instead of Low Conductors if searching for coins in iron trashy sites.)

The soil mineralization seems to be a big factor in Manticore performance currently.  Still very early for me, too, but I don't notice up-averaging with the Manticore any earlier (depthwise) than with the Eqx 800 in my test garden, contrary to what you just reported.  My ground is moderate (2-3 bars on the F75 and Gold Bug Pro Fisher models).

It seems Minelab still has work to do on the MC for stronger mineralized ground.  I hope they don't settle for "good enough" syndrome....

Thanks, GB!  I am sick that I apparently nicked the back of that 1876, ESPECIALLY since it's been suggested that on top of the condition of the coin, grade-wise, it ALSO seems to have a cracked-die error on the top rim, which may have made it somewhat valuable.  Too bad I didn't nick the 1837 instead.  Scratching that coin may have improved its condition, LOL!  

Seriously, though, yes -- I totally agree with you on the ATHC vs. the other modes, and in fact, at the start of the trip, I did exactly what you said (i.e. instead of using the much-less-falsy ATLC, I forced myself to utilize AT-General, which is sort of a middle ground).

YES, I agree that soil mineralization seems to be a big factor.  Apparently, anything but the mildest of dirt, and you are in for a noisy, difficult ride.  

I don't know if I have noticed up-averaging earlier, depth-wise, than my 800.  I was trying to describe two things...

1.  The Manticore seems "confident" and "solid" to me only on coins to about 4" deep.  Beyond that, there is almost ALWAYS at least SOME mixture of iron grunts mixed in.  In other words, it seems like a 4" or less coin's audio is simply SO dominant, that it gives nothing but a nice clean, clear signal.  My Equinox would give this nice clean, clear signal MUCH deeper.  A coin at 6" to 7" deep on the Equinox, though quieter, was still a good, solid, clear "coin signal."  On the Manticore, it still SEES the target just fine, but lots of other tones start mixing in...whether it be nails falsing, or rust/decomposed iron, or soil anomalies, I'm not sure.  Toward the end of the trip, I began trying to be REALLY careful with ground balance, to see if that helped eliminate some of the tones that were "dirtying-up" my coin targets...my next testing will be to locate what I think are some deep coins, and then ground balance immediately, and re-sweep the target, to see if I can "clean it up" a bit...

2.  But as for the specific issue of up-averaging, I would probably say that while a coin signal on the Manticore gets "dirty" for me after about 4 inches, it doesn't really "up-average" substantially, until deeper depths, probably similar to the Equinox 800.  I will say this, though...it up-averages WORSE than the Equinox.  I don't think I got an ID number on that 1876 Seated dime that was under 95...LOTS of 96 to 98 VDI.  And on a 79 air-test coin, that's awful.  Sure, the Equinox would give me a bunch of low 30s (maybe as high as 33 to 34) on a deep dime, but you'd have some 28s and 29s mixed in most of the time.  On the Manti, that Seated at 7" to 8" deep was SOLID high 90s.  

YES, Minelab still has work to do IMO, on M-IQ+.  I'm still perplexed that with such harsh soil available in Australia, that they couldn't get this taken care of PRE-release...ESPECIALLY since they did such a good job DECADES ago, with FBS VDI, at least in the types of dirt I hunt in.  It's amazing to me that, with experience, you could confidently "call" a deep silver coin, and oftentimes, what TYPE of silver coin it was, whereas with the Manticore, I'd be a FOOL to try that (at least at this stage of the game).

Steve

[Dug D]

I have all the mentioned issues and I generally ground balance between 2 and 14 or so. 

I rolled back the update and after a short hunt, the original is better for me. 

It can take some extreme effort to hit on a nickel and a dime buried flat at 6 inches GB of 3 sens 22. 

To be fair it takes the same effort to make both my Nox 800 and X-pro to hit on the same two coins. 

I have dug deeper pennies and dimes, where the sens can run higher, but they will have a 20 + number variation in IDs. (50s to 80s)

I wonder if Long Bow has the only machine that hit all the QC checks. 🙂

 

 

[steveg]

On 7/25/2023 at 4:55 PM, Jeff McClendon said:

I hate to hear this from you Steve G and from many others.

I have about 30 minutes just playing around with a Manticore so I don't have much of an opinion.

I however do consider the Manticore to be a much more feature rich and slightly more powerful version of the Equinox 900 which I did own for almost 5 months and which I put over 100 hours of careful time on.

As you regulars know, I too found the Equinox 800 to be beyond belief when I first started using one and about 40 hours in I started to make some incredible finds after I got used to its sensitivity and tendency to hit everything (I thought) in the ground.

The 900 at least where I most often detect, took the hitting everything in the high iron mineralization ground around here to a whole different and very unpleasant level both with extreme iron falsing and with multiple beeps and wide ranging target IDs on seemingly easy, mid depth targets that the Equinox 800, Deus 2 and Legend lock onto like they should with no fuss or disagreement. It was like the Equinox 900 was constantly arguing with itself and could never make up its mind which drove me honestly, nuts. It was like the experiences I had with so many single frequency high gain detectors out here that would just go crazy on simple targets.

So, Steve G's post rings very true with what I experienced with the 900.  It looks like Minelab made some fairly extensive software changes and the Nox 700/900 Multi IQ and Manticore Multi IQ+ just don't behave like the Equinox 600/800 Multi IQ which really shocked the excrement out of me. 

Like Steve G, I made some really good finds with the Nox 900 but that was almost by accident since I was so distracted and befuddled by the way it behaved. I enjoyed and appreciated absolutely everything about the Equinox 900 except for the most important part....how it detected.

So it has nothing to do with how much I like or dislike a detector like the Nox 900. The thing just didn't work very well where I detect most often. The tougher the ground conditions and man-made iron conditions, the worse it detected. SAD.

 

 

Jeff --excellent post.  Even though you were using the 900, and not the Manticore, I could have written exactly what you wrote and it would have been precisely correct/identical to my experience with the Manticore thus far.

The paragraph of yours that I bolded, in the quoted part above, is simply spot-on, in my opinion.  As I alluded to in a post I made a few minutes ago, it turns out it WAS INDEED you, that made the comparison to some of those older single-freq. high-gain units.  YES!!  Running the Manticore reminds me alot, in terms of its instability/uncertainty on even relatively simple targets, of my experience running the F-70, as I mentioned in that prior post.  I was so frustrated that I got rid of that unit in just a couple of months...and I have felt that same urge, at times, with the Manti.  

The problem is, I AM finding stuff with it; GOOD stuff.  But, like you noted...it seems almost "by accident" at times, because I am -- in your words -- distracted and befuddled by what the machine is doing audibly.  In fact, if it was indeed me that put that scratch on that 1876 dime, the Manticore has ALOT to do with that.  I almost NEVER scratch a coin, and yet, when digging that Seated, I had VERY little confidence that it was even a coin.  I dug so many deep rusty square nails that day, that were giving off nice high tones, and high 90s VDI, that when I got that fairly nice high tone, mixed with iron, but high 90s VDI, I CONSIDERED not even digging it.  When I DID decide to dig, I was FAR less careful than I would have been with the Equinox, as I would have KNOWN with the Equinox, on that specific target, that I likely had something good.  I didn't scratch it due to a missed pinpoint, or not digging a wide enough berth around it; it was a case of where it was not in the initial plug, but still down deeper in the hole, and so when I was "scraping out" a couple more inches of dirt, that's when I scratched it (if, indeed, it was me that cause that scratch).  Point being, YES, I was not near as careful as I would/should have been, but that was DUE TO the "uncertain/not solid" way that it hit that coin, and the very high up-averaged VDI that had me thinking "square nail" when I was digging it...

Anyway, your experiences with your 900 sound SO familiar...

Steve

[steveg]

On 7/25/2023 at 7:55 PM, midalake said:

Awesome dime!!! 

Thanks, midalake!

Steve