Rye Patch Claim Jumpers?

[Clay Diggins]

11 hours ago, mn90403 said:

Rail Dawg,

I was in Rye Patch last week.  I did extensive research before I went.  I took the time to walk to many of the section markers (corners) on section 17, 19, 9 and a few others.  I saw claim markers in some areas and did not go into your section 18.  There is a lot of unclaimed ground out there.  I might want to file a claim! 

I for one think that if you pay for a claim you should have the right of enjoyment. (I think you should also display signage which many do.)  I try to make sure of the quarter section of any claim so that I am not jumping.  My phone GPS now has the sections marked.  For some miners/prospectors this is too much trouble.  We know they violate decency in addition to mining laws.  They don't fill their holes no matter the claim status.

Let's get to the maps and the Land Manager status.  If you look on My Land Matters and any other mining map that is current I suspect then you will see the Land Manager Map.  Please note that there is NO PRIVATE LAND in 32N 32E.  All land is BLM or Bureau of Reclamation.  You can see the total placer claims and lode claims in the other sections.  In many cases the total acres claimed within those sections is less than the total acres in the section.  Sections 17 and 19 (in the middle of the area we are talking about) have no claims.  Nothing in 32N 32E is private land.

I don't know what the Pershing County Sheriff can do when I show him I'm on BLM land in section 17, 19 or others, do you?

Mitchel

 

This is disturbing to me Mitchel. I made that map and all it shows is who the land manager is and which sections have claims. The simple fact that the BLM is the land manager does not mean the land is open to prospecting or claim.

I took the next step for you. I downloaded the Master Title Plat (MTP) for that Township with a click on the Land Status map. The MTP clearly shows that most of the the odd numbered Sections have restricted minerals - as in not yours. So no you can't just look at a simple map and say to yourself "hmmm no claims and it's BLM managed so I'm good to go".

The reason this is disturbing to me is myself and others have spent a lot of personal time and money providing free tools and tutorials so the average prospector/researcher can know how to do their legally required Due Diligence before they put boots on the ground. The tools and information are now freely available. Abdicating your personal responsibility to know the land status before you prospect because I provided a map of claimed areas was not the intent of my work. Please don't use Land Matters as an excuse for criminal behavior. Ignorance is never a defense against a prosecution for mineral trespass or mineral theft.

The talk here has been of "Claim Jumping". Claim Jumping is the act of trying to steal a mining claim with paperwork and lawyers. Taking minerals from a claim you don't have permission to prospect is highgrading - not Claim Jumping. Higrading in all cases involves the theft of minerals owned by someone else. Apples and Oranges.

I get correspondence from a lot of claim owners complaining of higraders. This is not new to mining. Several studies of commercial placer mines have shown that higrading is the biggest threat to a profitable operation. Anyone that has worked for the larger mining companies know they spend a lot of time, money and hours ensuring their minerals are not stolen. Higrading is on every mining companies radar.

I often hear excuses like "If the claim isn't marked it's OK to prospect" and the even more common "It's the claim owners responsibility to maintain signs". Neither is true, a few States require corners be checked on an annual basis but in point of fact most states have no legal requirement that claims must maintain markers. In several states corner markers are not required at all for some claims and monuments only have to be present at the time of location. Although as a practical matter the claim owner should do everything possible to put others on notice of the claim it is not the legal responsibility of the claim owner to use signs or markers to keep prospectors off their claim.

Prospectors, unlike the general public, have a positive legal duty to know the mineral status of the land before entering to prospect. The claim owner put other prospectors on legal notice when they recorded their "Notice of Mining Claim Location" into the public record. That public record suffices as proper notice under the law even if there are no stakes at the mining claim location. The public record is open for inspection to all people.  Potential prospectors need to examine the public record before entering the land to prospect. Land Matters provides links to all the County Recorders right on the Mining Claim maps to assist you in accomplishing that requirement.

Where Land Matters could do better is in providing the subsurface mineral status of the lands. As you've seen above not all BLM managed land is open to prospecting or location. It's not just a matter of mineral withdrawals but more subtle issues like those odd numbered sections in parts of Rye Patch that were reconvened and were never open to location. There was no withdrawal there because there were no mineral rights to withdraw. Often those minerals have already been sold or leased. If you are found extracting minerals from these restricted lands the BLM will bring charges of criminal mineral theft. It happens quite often and is frequently prosecuted for something as simple as taking a pickup load of gravel or sand.

Then there is the big mass of "dark matter" that is the subsurface estate still owned by the United States. There are nearly 7 million acres of mineral lands, often available for prospecting and location, underneath private lands in the west. Mining companies know this and have legally mined private lands for years. It requires a huge amount of research to determine just where these hidden mineral lands are found. The BLM is tasked with maintaining the records of this huge subsurface estate but between the BLM and mining companies the attitude seems to be "out of sight - out of mind". With very few exceptions these records are available but virtually unobtainable by the average researcher. Land Matters has plans to map these subsurface mineral rights but it's a huge project with little public interest beyond the landsmen and oil and gas industries. We need to see some real public interest before we will commit the resources needed to complete such a big project.

Now to the tough part. Most of these complaints I receive of higraders are about metal detecting. Rarely do I hear of processing equipment being used. At least 9 out of 10 reports of higrading I receive are about metal detectorists taking the best and biggest gold. Several of you on this forum have been named by claim owners. I'm not the enforcement guy and I will not be calling you out in public but I do know. For small miners trying to protect their owned minerals from higrading the pointy finger is mostly about metal detectorists.

I do know that few of you set out with the intent to detect someone's minerals. In most cases these violations are due to ignorance, intentional or otherwise. Assuming that signs are required or that unclaimed BLM managed land must be available for prospecting are just two examples. I have heard from many prospectors that the big mining companies (or someone who appears to be working for a mining company) allow prospectors to work their claims. I've never found a prospector who had a name, phone number or signed release but this seems to be one of those things "everyone knows". I can tell you that no mining company that has public shares could ever legally allow you to prospect their claims without a work contract. The simple fact that you haven't been caught or run off does not amount to permission.

Please learn to do your own due diligence. Please respect mineral owners rights, those minerals are their private property under the law. With a little luck and hard work you could own a good deposit yourself.

Barry

 

 

[Rail Dawg]

Clay.  

Thank you.  

It’s what we live by as miners.  

You have taught me plenty over the years. 

[cobill]

Hey LuckyLundy,

That wasn't me in RP that you met. I only acquired my claim in 2016 and only have a few weeks a year to prospect..

Some background- Major Corporations have owned Sec 18 since the early 1970's. First by Saundra Lee in 1974, then Apollo Gold, and since 2007 Jipangu Gold Corp. Sec 18 became open to claim in 2016, when Jeff Dunmire acquired and then sold the 20-acre claims.

So basically, if anybody has been metal detecting Sec 18 in the last 40 years without written permission from one of those corporations, they were higrading.

32 minutes ago, Clay Diggins said:

Please learn to do your own due diligence. Please respect mineral owners rights, those minerals are their private property under the law.

Thanks Barry for all your efforts on Land Matters.

Bill

[hawkeye]

Clay, thanks for your reply.  "Mystery" solved.  Points taken.

 

[Rail Dawg]

We have been finding a lot of trash in Rye Patch so the area isn't as picked over as it might seem.

Square nails, screws, bottle caps from a long time ago.

Some of this trash a few inches deep so it's obvious that the ground wasn't hit by metal detectors.

And we did find gold on Sunday.

We do need to upgrade from the ATX Pro and are going to be buying 2 of the Minelab GTZ 7000's.

My original post was only to call out that we saw prospectors hi-grading in Section 19 and we are well-versed on who owns those minerals.

I didn't realize as a new member to the forum that maybe those prospectors were here!

We have many claims that we work out there and have worked very hard to gain the knowledge necessary to locate and maintain those claims.

No they weren't bought off eBay we did it the hard way lol.

To Rudy and Lucky Lundy you guys were great to talk with at the Gold Digger Inn.

We go out to Rye Patch almost monthly so maybe when we see you again you can give us some pointers on operating the 7000's.

We're not going to spill any secrets but there is definitely gold still at Rye Patch in certain areas.

Again Clay Diggins is the MASTER of claims and all things land-related.

His words are worth their weight in gold.

No harm no foul we move forward from here as fellow miners.

[Rail Dawg]

I just made yet another donation to MyLandMatters.org

Clay Diggins (Barry) works hard to bring this information to all of us and it is a site worth visiting on a regular basis.

 

[LuckyLundy]

Cobill,

Love your History lesson!  I’m not here to get either of you claim owners upset!  All claim owners have the same problems w/Unauthorized minerals withdraws.  Like Clay’s above information everyone should know the basics to know where they are in searching for a nugget!  The underlining problem is only One Percent do.  Next time your out in the Goldfields, stop and ask someone where section 8 or 18 is located.  Like, Clay mentioned above not knowing where your at isn’t much of and excuse...but, it’s a fact.  Until all Prospectors are educated on researching open/claimed mineral land status this is a never ending story we face with our claims.  Now, I’ve had adjacent claim owner problems as well...they all ready know your sweet dredge or Detecting spots.  

LuckyLundy

[Clay Diggins]

23 minutes ago, Rail Dawg said:

I just made yet another donation to MyLandMatters.org

Clay Diggins (Barry) works hard to bring this information to all of us and it is a site worth visiting on a regular basis.

 

Thanks for the kudos and your continuing support Dawg.

I should point out that Land Matters is a group effort based on volunteers and donations from the public. I myself am a volunteer. Land Matters has a board of directors (I'm not an officer) as well as a nearly full time director. There are no paid employees and no advertising.

I couldn't do what Land Matters does without the help of the many volunteers and donors. Many of those volunteers and donors post on this forum. Land Matters couldn't exist without those individuals support. This isn't really all about me, I'm just the loudest voice among many.

My personal thanks go out to the many donors, supporters and volunteers that make Land Matters possible.

 

Barry

[pax]

Thanks Clay ,I just renewed my membership