Chase Goldman

Steve, let first me say that as I have been following your rod development your attention to detail, ingenuity, and craftsmanship appear top notch. I am seriously considering getting either a lower shaft or full shaft system. Nevertheless, here is my feedback per your request. Adding 28 oz (1.75 lbs) of counterweight is still adding a lot of gross weight to a 3.2 lb the detector system (53% additional weight, though that weight is based on the stock detector rod system not yours) to compensate and balance the 23 oz total weight large coil. That added gross weight still needs to be FULLY supported by your swing arm no matter how perfectly balanced the detector is. After awhile, that is going to really be fatiguing. I use a GPX. The rear mounted under rod control box and side-saddle mounted full battery (vs. the battery harness system) tends to balance the large, heavy coils really well and it feels great when you first start your day, but my gosh, a few hours in and you are spent because the gross weight of the entire thing just wears your arm out. OTH I can swing the Equinox all day without fatigue even with its slight nose heaviness and that includes the large coil. I know this because when my arm wore out using the GPX on a recent week long detecting marathon, I could pick up my Equinox and swing it around like a dream, even fatigued, and that is because the overall weight is less than half of the perfectly balanced GPX. TBH, in a weird way, the larger coil feels more balanced to me than the stock coil. I know this is not physically possible because the CG is the same on both coils and the large coil is 5 oz more weight, but it comes down to the fact that I am ONLY adding 5 oz of additional weight to swing that large coil and that does not present significant fatigue over time and I guess the nose heaviness never really registered for me in the first place as I adjusted the armrest forward as far as possible. I guess, what I am saying is that it seems to me that if balance is a real issue for folks, they may be better served going to a harness setup that both provides a fulcrum balance point AND also supports a portion of the gross weight taking stress off the swing arm (even though IMO harnesses are a PITA to use in the field during target recovery) rather than adding 1.75 more pounds of gross weight to the detector system. That's my perspective as a short, fat weak guy I guess vs. tall hulk guy who can swing nearly 4.75 pounds of detector all day long. Light gross weight is one of the reasons why I gravitated to Equinox in the first place. Your system is a viable alternative to the down side of using a harness, but the weight does add up and makes a difference after a few hours of swinging. Good to provide the coutnerbalance options but just thought I would provide my perspective on counterbalance systems. BTW - remind me what are you using as the counterbalance filler? Perhaps you can use a more dense material pushed further back in the counterbalance assembly to use moment arm to further reduce the added weight necessary for the CB? Also, how adjustable is the CB as the moment arm will change depending on the overall rod length and the placement of the arm rest with respect to the control head handle. I guess I am a little fuzzy on how you arrived at the set counterbalance assembly length dimensions and weights for all user shaft length configurations for different arm lengths, user heights, swing angles, etc. that would seem to me to all have an impact on the true balance point. But I'm not a mechanical engineer, ergonomics expert, or craftsman, so I could be totally off base.

Here are some tips: Remember to EMI noise cancel on startup. I recommend ground balancing the detector unless your soil has NO mineralization. It only takes a few seconds. Also remember that each mode needs to be treated like a separate detector because each mode has a different Multi IQ profile. This means you need to EMI noise cance and ground balance each mode you use at a site, separately. Each mode may give you a completely different ground balance number on the same plot of land, and that is by design because the frequency profile is different for each mode. Until you get used to the machine, I would just run Park 1 at the defaults. Avoid the temptation to mode hop if you are not finding success. Mode hop if you feel confident in the machine and understand its capabilities and language (e.g., Park 1 uses 5 tones and is optimized for large and high conductive targets but Multi IQ will still enable you to hit those mid conductive relics and the default recovery speed setting of is a good middle of the road starting point and high iron bias of 6 to mitigate iron falsing. If you are feeling confident and adventurous with the Equinox and/or are experienced with different types of machines and can pick up on their quirks quickly, for relic hunting at a farm field, my favorite mode would be Field 2 because its Multi IQ profile is optimized for mid-conductors like brass, lead, aluminum, and gold, it uses 50 tones (not for everyone, but it gives you a lot of useful audio target information if you have learned the clues), has a higher recovery speed at 7 that improves separation and lowers ground noise (but may clip deeper target signals), and has zero Iron Bias (which I like because I will trade iron falsing on large round iron, nails and nail heads to preclude non-ferrous target masking for non-ferrous targets within swing distance of an iron target). The default user settings in each of the modes (tones, recovery speed, Iron Bias, etc) are pretty good and you should only have to make minor adjustments from the defaults. If you find yourself making gross adjustments or are adjusting multiple parameters at a time, you may only be making things worse not better unless you have an in depth understanding of what those settings do and their "side effects". For example, folks are tempted to turn sensitivity settings way up from the default of 20 (goes to 25) or turn recovery speed settings way down to gain depth, but adjusting those parameters to gain depth is effective only to a point because you may introduce more EMI noise with a higher sensitivity setting and you need to properly adjust your swing speed and you may end up increasing ground noise overall for lower recovery speed settings. The key to this machine is balancing settings to optimize the signal to noise ratio of the machine (i.e., increase the signal without increasing the noise). And like I said, it is pretty optimized out of the box, so go easy on the adjustments especially when making gross adjustments of individual parameters or adjusting more than one parameter at a time.. Don't sleep on using the horseshoe button to remove discrimination so that you can hear iron tones. Great to use when interrogating a target you may suspect may be falsing iron because the underlying iron grunt usually gives it away and it gives you an idea of iron target density where you are unting. Love that it is just a button push away. The pinpoint mode is a little quirky to get used to, but it is a great tool to use for more than just pinpointing (in fact I prefer to pinpoint using wiggle off the front or back edge of the coil). The Equinox does not over-modulate strong (e.g. shallow or large or both) targets well so a shallow aluminum can may sound like a sweet target on Equinox whereas other detectors will give you a clear distorted overload signal. There are audio cues, but they are subtle. Pinpoint helps because it is a non-motion mode - you don't have to swing your coil over the target to get a response, so you can just sort of trace the target using your coil in pinpoint and readily recogize whether it is coin sized or bigger than a coin or relic. Shallow belt plates and aluminum cans are hard to tell apart with Equinox even with the pinpoint tell, unfortunately. But it is a tool in the toolkit you can use. Gold mode is not just for prospecting. Similar to pinpoint mode, it use pitch vice tone ID (but unlike pinpoint mode it is a motion mode and does give a visual target ID). It can be useful in cleaning up iffy, clippy, or weak signals in the tone ID modes (Park, Field, or Beach) . To switch modes quickly, I store gold mode in the User Profile slot. That way I can quickly switch between gold mode and my main search program (e.g., Park 1 or Field 2) when interrogating a target. Going to single frequency is also a useful tool to help ID a potential ferrous or junk target or to clean up mixed ferrous/non-ferrous target situations (e.g., bottlecaps). I usually do not search/hunt in single frequency but just use it as a target interrogation tool. I will hunt in single frequency however if EMI is really bad in Multi (the higher single frequencies do better in bad EMI) or if soil conditions are really bad (high mineralization). Anyway, too much info to cover in a single post, especially for the new user. Just recognize you have a powerful tool in your hands. Do not get frustrated first time out if your site doesn't produce. It is a different animal than the ATP you are used to, more similar to perhaps the F70. Give it time and then get comfortable and start using its versatility and built-in tools. Enjoy and go find some relics. cg

Yep. Don the rain gear and go for it. Even though the wireless headphones are not WP, you can hide them under your rain hood because...no wires.

Going to need to see the photographic evidence of you detecting on top of the water before I agree to that.

Steve - I like how you actually plugged in the GM coil for effect. Did you energize the control head too for curiosity sake or were you afraid that the earth might then get sucked into the resulting black hole. Hmm, this gives me some ideas on how to punk some of my buds with some phony new Equinox coil text message pics... ?

In fact, one can legitimately argue that I violated my own advice by posting what I did, because my point of view on the issue is by definition subjective and opinion, so I will just own that right now so don't bother making a point of it. But just had to get it off my chest.

I've found that in a discussion forum format nothing good ever comes from expressing opinions that are hard to ever substantiate because they are so subjective, unlike detector performance or debating hardware specs which can somewhat be backed up objective test or finds evidence, and even then it is often left to personal perception. That's why I attempt to refrain from casting doubt on another person's detecting skills, the authenticity of their finds, their detecting level of knowledge, or ability to articulate that knowledge in writing. I try to avoid using the phrase "you're wrong" and try to let facts take care of the rest, especially if I am being personally attacked with false information that can be factually refuted. It almost always degenerates into the side-taking divisiveness and borderline (or worse) personal attacks, braggadocio, and no-win arguements which I think goes against the general tone and spirit that Steve had established on this site to avoid the what other detecting discussion sites have devolved into. Am I always successful in following my own advice. Nope. But I do try to stop myself from crossing the line of personal attacks, even when defending my position. I shake my head ruefully when I see that this started because people questioned/defended the abilities of the detectorist who is named as the subject of this thread (originally meant to be humorous, btw) but who is NOT EVEN PARTICIPATING IN THE DISCISSION! Incredibly ridiculous IMO.

The reason Anker provides that warning is the output circuit disconnects the battery source at low outputs indicating a fully charged load or nothing is connected to the USB outputs. Not sure, but pretty sure the headphones draw more than 50mA during charge. Problem is the Anker unit will turn off/disconnect when the phones are fully charged so you will never see the solid red charged indication. But you can usually trust they will be fully charged.

W Well, there are a number of other wireless low latency BT headsets out there with different earcup sizes etc., for comfort, as Steve pointed out. And as an alternative means to stay untethered to the detector, you can always plug a favorite set of wired headphones into the included ML wireless module that you can stuff into a shirt or vest pocket or clip to your belt.

Yes. Tony's are white and are good phones. If you just want something that has good volume and a long cord that can withstand the elements and take a dunking or two, I highly recommend the LS.Pelsos sold by KellyCo.

Frankly, due to the small form factor of the Deus/ORX, I really don't give it much thought. It bothers me about as much as whether or not my pinpointer rolls to the side when I set it on the ground. With a case cover on the remote, or often with no remote attached to the stem at all while in use (I keep it in my chest pocket) it really is no big deal. You have to use one to know why I feel this way. Different story with my more traditional detectors like the Equinox or F75. Prefer those not tipping over.

The 9.5"x5" elliptical is a laser beam. Great coverage (9.5") and pinpoint separation and 5" swing clearance in trash which is driven mainly by the excellent recovery speed options in DEUS/ORX. Frankly, I wish ML had come out with this form factor and size for their small coil option for the Equinox instead of the 6 inch round.

Agree. XP has been enormously successful in the UK. The Deus design sets up very well for the type of relic and old coin hunting done there. Similarly they tapped into the Aftican gold craze with their budget gold detecting version of the Deus. But this ORX gambit and other forays into the US marketplace (especially how they market their products in the US) has often left me scratching my head.

Yep. XP has an uphill climb to compete effectively, offering only compactness without groundbreaking performance above the crowded competition. Like I said, if XP was offering a choice of two of their coils with ORX at that price point, it could be interesting. Fat chance they will do that though and they would really need to add a few features back to the coin programs for more widespread adoption. Instead of filling a market niche, they may have gotten themselves into a divot...

In the case of Deus and ORX adding a wired coil would only INCREASE cost. All the brains of the unit are in the coils. That is why Deus units can be run using only the Coil and their proprietary wireless headphones. No control box needed for actual detecting. Most UK users only own a Deus control box so they can custom program the coil (where the custom programs are actually stored) and then they leave it in the car and detect in the fields using the headphones and coil only. ORX needs the control box, though. It can't be run in the Deus lite setup, sans control box.

Agree with that. I have wanted to do this owning two Equinoxes and I intentionally kept one rolled back to the original firmware. The difficulty for me lies in the fact that I only have one 6 inch coil and two different shaft systems (Anderson and the OEM shaft) so even switching back and forth with a dedicated lower shaft is difficult. The best I can do right now is compare the two with the 11" coil. I have done that and am analyizing the video I took of that test to see if I can come up with some conclusions. Thing is, it won't shed much light on falsing because I did the comparison testing on neutral beach sand because I was looking for target ID stability, depth, and audio quality. Maybe I can run some tests with the 6" before things freeze up.

Yep I totally agree with your cost analysis for the gold hunter, Steve. Someone looking for a packable, compact solution for deep wilderness gold hunting cannot do much better than ORX from a value perspective. Deus not required. And agree it is less attractive to the general detectorist looking to break into the Deus/ORX universe. Caveat: unless that user is willing to look at used Deus units... The Equinox effect cannot be ignored. CTX and DEUS detectors are being dumped on the used detector market in droves in the wake of new Equinox acquisitions. Someone who is vigilant can possibly pick up a good, used non-lite Deus system for a pretty good price. Those prospectors who don't need the compactness of Deus/ORX might also give serious consideration to the Equinox 800. A capable gold prospecting detector at the same price point as ORX but with a ton more capability for general coin, relic, and beach detecting. As far as Deus Lite vs. ORX is concerned, I lean towards ORX for two reasons. 1) You need the control box for either DEUS or ORX to perform pinpointing and 2) Although the Deus Lite headphones with version 5.2 software can now be used to alter several more user parameters than before, those parameter alterations cannot be saved for future use - you have to have the control box to save any customizations or set up the customizations on every use without it. So all things being approximately equal price wise, I guess I would lean towards ORX in the absence of a good deal on a used full up Deus setup. Finally, a general comment on ORX pricing. I still don't quite get where XP is on the ORX pricing. I am not a detector manufacturer but I do work in a field that produces high tech gear. Pricing is usually driven by competition (see Equinox), customer demand for unique features your detector can offer (light, compact, high range of operating frequencies, good ferrous rejection, high recovery), Research and Development investment (pretty miniscule here considering ORX is simply a subset of Deus programming and capability and the coils, which XP touts as the brains are identical), and finally production and material costs (pretty small based on the automation XP employs at its manufacturing facility and should be practically identical for Desu and ORX). The reduced feature set alone should not be the cost driver because the programming and cost of the remote vs. Deus should be exactly the same. So the only thing that can actually be reducing cost is the reduced R&D investment, competition and demand. We will have to see if a reduced demand signal than what XP was expecting combined with pressure from ML will drive down the MAP. That may take some time to reach price equilibrium following release and whether XP will "juice" the ORX with additional Deus-like capability with a future firmware upgrade. Should be interesting to see how this turns out.

They can, and with a little tweaking, it could be a great budget alternative to the Deus (I hope they do) but to make it a true budget alternative, the pricing needs to be more in line where the marketplace is today on mid-capability detector pricing. I provided some ideas as to how XP could do that and perhaps still make money. But there is no denying the fact that how ML has priced the feature-rich Equinox, they have created a huge disturbance in THE FORCE - otherwise known as the mid-priced detector market.

I remember now when you first posted that monster rotary hammer pic. Yeah I am not a big fan of detecting with a pick axe and throwing plug clods next to fire to thaw out the finds - BUT I HAVE DONE IT! lol. I'll take a cold winter rain mosh pit detecting session any time though, if its a good site.

After going through the user manual and Gary's video here is my take as an experienced Deus user/instructor but WITHOUT laying my hands on one: Basically you have 2 slots occupied by the Deus Gold Field Program (called Gold/Fine Gold) and 2 slots occupied by the Deus Fast program (called Coin Fast/Coin Deep) and 2 open slots. Sensitivity and Disc are fully adjustable 0-99 (IAR is used for the Gold Programs instead of disc). Tones are either Pitch (Gold) or 3-Tones (Coin) with the low tone corresponding to iron, based on the disc setting, and which can be turned either off or on - that's it, no adjusting iron volume level. No full tones, no pitch tone in Coin mode, no 4 or 5 multitones, no audio response, no notches, no silencer, and the mid and high tone breaks are not adjustable. A threshold tone can be set in the Gold modes. Reactivity can be adjusted from 1, 2, 2.5, 3 - which are the only reactivity settings I have used on Deus anyway. For ground settings it is manually or automatically set with ground grab if there is enough mineraluzation, but no tracking mode. You can select a salt range for wet salt or alkaline soil conditions. Fully adjustable coil frequency settings within the capability of the coil you attach to it. No TX power adjustment, No Target ID normalization across frequencies, no apparent target volume modulation with depth, and no depth meter. So that's it. The difference between the two preprogrammed gold programs is the default sensitivity setting, the default frequency setting (31 khz/51 or 74 khz depending on the HF coil you use or 17/25 khz for the x35 coil) and the reactivity setting. The difference between the two preprogrammed coin modes is the default reactivity setting (2.5 for fast, 2 for deep). If you are using the HF coils, both coin modes are set at 14 khz. If you are using the X35 coils, Fast Coin is set at 17 khz and Deep Coin is set at 8 khz. Otherwise, it is apparently geared toward the gold seeker with a pair of very simplistic, yet effective coin/relic mode programs thrown in for good measure. Likes: Complete compatibility with all the new Deus coils and the MI6 pinpointer and App (if it ever gets released) which means all Deus frequencies are available to the ORX user. Simplified Menu navigation and user interface (perhaps too simplified in SOME areas). You get almost the same Gold Field experience as you get with the Deus except no audio response setting and Rx capped at 3 Like the large TID and IRON probability displays when you get a target hit Overall, I like it better than the Deus lite package Made the amazing Deus light-weight, low-profile package even lighter. Perfect for grab n go and on the go, carry-on travel. Dislikes Still priced TOO HIGH for what it is IMO, needs to come down a few hunge and the headphones should just be included at the lower price point. XP perhaps missed a business opportunity here to partially eat into a crowded mid-range detector market. Alternatively, they could offer it at the advertised price point but with any two coils. They could possibly get a lot of existing LF legacy coil Deus users to buy in on that simply so they could get their hands on two of the "new" coils with the ORX stuff as a bonus. The Coin mode is perhaps too simplified with no way to vary Transmit Power Tones - 3 tones are it (with the ability to turn the lower iron tone off or on), No Full Tones, No other multitone options, Cannot adjust the Mid and High tone breaks and no Pitch in coin mode. No Audio Response Setting - Gary noticeably struggled with lack of target audio modulation and had to guess as to target depth. It must be locked at 5 or 6 which means no change in audio intensity with depth. No overload indicator or depth meter No independent silencer setting adjustment - (I wonder if it tracks with reactivity setting or if it is turned off?) No negative Disc No Notches No ID Normalization Tracking GB would have been nice, but can live with the ground balance scheme provided Would like a few more custom memory slots to enable custom frequency interrogation of targets though it appears you can only step through the modes sequentially by pressing the # button vice the +/- buttons like on the Deus so negative points for a user interface step backwards but with only 6 slots, no biggie. In the end, I think they went slightly too far on the tone simplifications in the Coin modes and there needed to be something (like audio modulation at least) that would give the user SOME idea of depth. If it had pitch AND full tones in the coin modes (and perhaps priced a little lower) I would probably pick one up for rucksack use when swinging my PI detector in Culpeper or as a grab and go travel machine that I would not freak out too much about if someone decided to lift it (the cool thing about Deus and travel is that you can break it down and separate the parts (coil, control box, headphones, and coil) so if someone lifts a bag, you can still retain some of your investment). CG P.S. - The ORX is compatible with all XP DEUS coil types except the first generation/legacy LF coils.

Gray 35 degree days in winter are what I call PERFECT detecting days around here in the VA-MD-DE-WV-PA area (as long as the ground is not frozen). Lol.

Maybe ML can pull off a miracle here and thread the needle with additional tweaking, but if you have folks complaining that edge-on high conductors are not sounding off and IDing properly you might be stuck with more iron falsing as the side effect. I was never a fan of minelab going in and messing with the SW for that very rare situation. Iron falsing comes into play more often than enountering silver hoards or perfectly edge-on quarters at the surface. Besides, it was proven that going to single frequency addressed the high conductor issue, so if you were paranoid you missed an edge-on quarter, you could just re-scan the site at 10 khz and you should be fine. Ideally, if there was a way to punch up pre and post upgrade SW right on the unit without having to hook up to a computer, that would be awesome. Here's a link to a post that Steve posted that shows how detector manufacturers use conductivity, conductance, and intrinsic magnetism to generate a Target ID and how overlaps at the fringes of these parameters can result in falsing depending on operating frequency, shape, and mass of the target. It's amazing how accurate detector designers can get with Target ID considering all the variables that need to be managed. And I know that I sound like a broken record, but if you crank up the Iron Bias to 7 to get rid of falsing as some have suggested, you are definitely going to miss iron masked non-ferrous targets that are in closer proximity to the iron than shown in El Nino's pic. The way I look at it, if you remove an iron spike that is falsing, that is just one more mask out of the way of a deeper non-ferrous keeper. If you never hear it with iron bias, the nail stays in the ground and so does the keeper. Another way to look at "dig it all" simply means that you are digging "certain" iron or non-ferrous junk up and getting it out of the way to unmask the keepers. Dig it all does not necessarily just mean you are digging it because the detector hits and you are not sure what it is. Anyway, can't wait to hear back on how it goes with the roll back at your problem site.

The question is kind of a non-starter. Unlike wireless audio, which is ubiquitous outside of metal detecting, a wireless coil only makes sense in the context of a ground up system design. Bolting on wireless coils to "conventional" detector designs that employ a control box/user interface makes little sense to me because all the "downsides" mentioned throughout this thread are applicable in conventional paradigm - added cost, susceptibility to EMI, complexity subject to failure, the need to add an antenna wire when using the coil submerged, additional batteries to manage, etc. It is clear that most non-Deus users are inclined to say "No, thank you." and I get that. But if you look at the advantages a total wireless system (not just a coil, but audio, control box, and pinpointer, too) solution brings to the table in terms of reduced weight because you can get rid of connection points, and extra cable weight (it adds up folks) and control heads, creating a low profile, and dividing up the processing work between different electronics modules (not necessarily co-located), then the Deus wireless "system" is just simply a brilliant marriage of wireless and traditional detecting technology. Is there room for additional Deus-like detectors out there? Perhaps, but I am not seeing it drive a huge market swing into that direction, partially because XP holds the patent and partially because its advantages are not overly compelling to a majority of users because they are not seeing a need for a feather light detector and the cost is also a deterrent. But it is a great system that has been thoughtfully designed to mitigate many of the obvious disadvantages that a wireless coil introduces and accentuates the advantages of wireless. So my point is making conventional detectors compatible with wireless coils does not make a lot of sense to me, so it is not important to me in that sense. Deus does make a lot of sense and I will take the good with the bad because I value the performance and low profile the system provides. Easy to travel with and a great grab 'n' go design that I always have available to me. It is not attention grabbing from a distance and tends to keep people from coming up and asking me questions. Which is a good thing because I tend to lash out and cause a scene whenever someone tries to engage me during a detecting session. Sometimes it gets real violent and the authorities are called, so if I can use something to help me avoid that scene, it much appreciated. So my completely wireless detector is a great compliment to my other favorite detector which is the Equinox. And, no, I am not interested in a wireless coil version of the Equinox.

Actually this is not about an economy model cost savings measure on ML's part but is sort of the way the detector design community is headed as they move heavier into digital signal processing. It is not even clear to me that the CTX 3030 flagship detector has true all metal mode (as opposed to simply a zero discrimination pattern). I do not own a CTX, just went through the manual in detail, so I am sure a CTX expert will set me straight. But I can tell you with certainty, the Deus @ $1500 does not have a true all metal mode (Gold Field mode being the closest approximation). Point is, this is not about saving cost. It is about the the detector designers favoring digital signal processing over transmitting the raw unfiltered signal. All metal mode is not something you will automatically find on many high end detectors. So the OP's statements like, "When I pay $650.00 for a machine I expect it to have that option on it -period. Their is no excuse why it does not" that imply the lack of a true all metal mode is an Equinox oversight or that all high end detectors have this feature, is not consistent with many high end detector designs of recent years (though true metal is still a feature on a number of recently released detectors). Though I do understand why you like it, Maltfoto, my point was there are ways you can use the Equinox zero disc mode to your advantage without losing a lot of capability vs. true all metal and, as I discuss below, the 800 would have been more suited to your feature preferences and detecting style. The move in the detector community away from including All Metal Mode or at least the marketeer's imprecise use of technical terms that have kind of blurred the line between Zero Disc mode and (true) All Metal Mode is addressed in Steve's excellent Detector Mixed Modes Guide. This will better illustrate whey you will not find all metal mode on all detectors, even high end detectors, and also how it can be mitigated through mixed modes or intelligent application of available features on detectors which do not incorporate the feature. Regarding Equinox. Gold Mode available only on the 800 is probably the closest thing to a mixed mode. It invokes most features of true all metal mode through its use of VCO pitch like audio and true audio threshold for target acquisition and target ID at depth using the discrimination circuit. Though still not precisely true all metal, this weak signal mode is also the mode that is the ideal mode to test small gold target performance versus the Fishers. Again, it seems for the type of detecting Maltfoto prefers, the 800 would have been the better choice. Regardless, I think the 600 is a great complimentary detector that, despite its shortcomings, does still have advantages over the Fishers in some, if not most, scenarios. So hanging on to it and learning more about how to get more out of it with experience would be a great move by Maltfoto, if getting an 800 is out of the question. Thanks again to Maltfoto for kicking off a great discussion.

Amergin - have you rolled back and confirmed the sites are producing again? That would basically be a confirmation of your theory.