peterinaust Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 In the new year, was thinking of a 6000 and followed the problems it was having and seems to be ok now. And then the Axiom came along and made me lean more towards the Axiom, and you started having trouble (looks like the only one though) should be a few more in oz by now? you would think. Thank you so much for posting and spending so much time to try and get to the bottom of this problem, when you could be out finding gold. I wander if Garrett in the US follow DP? and chase it up with Garrett in oz. From what we hear Garrett are very good with warranty. We will see. Thank you thank you for posting. Cheers Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Bush Posted December 26, 2022 Author Share Posted December 26, 2022 This is the text from a DM I sent yesterday to Steve H: “Stockholm syndrome is real. After yesterday, even though I am reasonably confident this unit has an issue, I don’t want to admit it. Yesterdays location has, for reasons I don’t know, always been a very difficult location to detect. Not overly hot per se but mineralised in such a way that every detector I have tried there has real difficulties. Last year I was there with a friend and we stuffed around for a giggle and tried his 7000, my 6000, his SDC and even my Garrett Sea Hunter Mk II amongst others. None of them operated anywhere near as perfectly as Axiom yesterday. Depth varies dramatically from bedrock visible to three feet of what appears to be a combination of calcium rich wash gravels and WA typical high Fe content fines. Without analysis I can’t be sure what it is but I do know that how Axiom handled it was one of the most impressive things I have seen in some time. After I took the video I cranked it up to 8 and played around for a bit. Normally, from experience with particularly 6000, it would be very difficult to determine a target from the undulating ground noise while pushing that much power into the ground in that location. But Axiom easily maintained good separation between a low sound wave peak on ground noise and a much higher peak on a target. Wave duration also was markedly different between target and ground. No doubt what was a target and what was a noise pocket. If I didn’t know better I would say this was the location Garrett did all R & D on Axiom. It was that good there. I have no doubt now that Axiom, maxed out, is pushing much more power, for want of a better term, into its pulse than 6000. Im not all that technical so I hope you are picking up what I’m putting down. Some decent non Garrett coils and Axiom will, in my opinion and quoting Dr. Emmet Brown, see some serious shit.” Currently there is no option for me to do anything about getting Axiom replaced even if I was 100% sure it is a faulty unit. So, I am taking the time to be sure and at this point it’s still 50/50. Hard to believe that a detector can work so well on ground that historically I would call extreme, (admittedly due to mineralisation different to what you would normally call extreme), but has issues in a creek bed that would also rate extreme. The creek bed is definitely a more varied ground but the difference between the way Axiom responds between the two is dramatic. What you saw as a target in the video was a shot gun pellet 0.18 grams roughly 105mm (4 and a bit bald eagles) deep. The reason I chose that spot in amongst the trees was because I had been over it several times with 6000 and was (wrongly) sure no targets existed to interfere with diagnosing a problem with Axiom Its also one of the more difficult areas on that tenement. Unusual for a pellet to be more than an inch or two down so we raked all the leaves and debris out to find that it appears someone has dumped the equivalent of maybe four wheelbarrows of dirt there and years of erosion have washed the mound down until it’s barely noticeable and when covered with leaves and debris, unnoticeable. In the video you can see that the target location is slightly elevated in comparison to the ground around it. Being a nice shady spot, I know I have been through there at least twice previously with 6000 and missed that target. That in itself and as a one off doesn’t prove much other than most likely I didn’t do a very good job previously or possibly but unlikely 6000 couldn’t process the extreme ground well enough to show me the target. I would lean towards the first likelihood. Axion heard the pellet on 6 and as you see in the video, it was quite a clear signal and similar in tone and shape to the test nugget sitting on the surface. When I took sensitivity to 8, it fairly well blew my skirt up and yet was still usably stable on surrounding ground. Yesterday has proven one thing above all else, I must retract my previous statement. Regardless of any possible fault in this particular Axion, I would always want one in the detector tool box. That is based on only using it around Kalgoorlie where every piece of available ground has been hammered to death. I must stress that it has yet to find gold but I believe that to be a reflection of my location rather than a deficiency in Axiom. Was I 1000 klms further north in my backyard, I am 100% confident there would be gold in my bottle. Unfortunately, at this time of year, it’s so hot up there that if you wear safety orange you burst into flames. And let’s not forget that gold in the bottle is the point of the exercise and ultimately reveals all about a detector and it’s operator. At this point in the journey and given that for the last 18 months I have exclusively used and been successful with a 6000 I would say this: Only allowed one detector and only with coils supplied by the detector manufacturer - Axiom Only allowed one detector with any coils of my choosing - 6000 with Rohan’s excellent NF 12 x 7 and 16 x 10 monos Based just on experience and without any scientific test to back me up (gulp) I think a maxed out 6000 is probably equivalent to setting 6 or 7 on a production version Axiom with the higher available gain. So once the coil manufacturers give us coils that allow Axiom to be run maxed out the majority of the time I would absolutely expect it to overtake 6000 in grams. Then, combined with the many other things I have previously mentioned (build quality, adjustability, weight, balance, battery life etc etc) that already elevate it above 6000, Axiom would be my first choice. I am grateful for the ability to afford multiple detectors so, for me, 6000 and Axiom (either current unit or replacement if this one proves to indeed be moody) will be cell mates into the foreseeable future. As I typed the above sentence I realised that, as of today, I can’t even be sure the specific Axiom I currently have is operating completely as intended and yet like it enough to not be without one regardless of what other detectors I have available to use. That in itself is telling. While waiting to speak with Garrett, I will continue to advise you all with anything relevant that occurs while using Axiom. Have a safe and Happy Christmas. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Bush Posted December 26, 2022 Author Share Posted December 26, 2022 17 hours ago, Gold Catcher said: Thanks, Gone Bush. Yes indeed, many areas in CA have serious hot rock issues, either due to volcanic activities (Mojave desert in the South) or due the nature of the iron rich geology of the motherlode belt (i.e. Serpentine schist, North). Now, we also have better and milder grounds for detecting, so it is certainly not all that bad across the entire state. It just would be nice to have a workable and light machine available for these problematic areas where other machines can't be used (with the GPZ being perhaps an exception, with the settings I described). Although in AU the nature of the soil is very different, you surely don't lack difficult ground conditions there neither (!), so the Axiom could be a great value detector with its reported GB capabilities. It would be very interesting to go back to the same spot where you shot the clip to see if the same test nugget would be picked up after the fix. But this might be a long journey, so probably not feasible. I hope you can at least use the Axiom in less hot grounds during your trip, with some nice gold for you to take home regardless. You surely earned it. Good luck! GC If Garrett decide to replace the unit, as I believe they will want to do, my first trip will be back to that exact creek bed location. Only 45 klms out so well worth the trip to see the results. Overall, excluding the currently unknown noise issue, it’s ground balance and hot rock abilities are the best I have seen in any detector ever. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aureous Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 Interesting issue GB....Not owning an Axiom, but with 8 months behind a 6000, I can state that there IS some ground that it absolutely hates. Remembering my many years prospecting in WA, regarding that silty ground and the fine laterite soils, SOME are totally unstable to various detectors and perfect on others. I remember walking away from a laterite patch near Ora Banda using a 3000 and went back the following year with an old 2100 and it was fine. Here in Vic, Ive found several patches of near-surface orange clay, that when moist, are a 'walk away' situation. No amount of dumbing down the detector will help. But Ive used a Gold Bug 2 on these patches without issue. Go figure.... Initially, I looked at the video and thought... "he kept tracking off in that noise???" But you later said it was equally hopeless with it on so there's goes that theory lol. As shown above, there seems to be some benefit occasionally in switching to a manual ground balance machine and trying again, but it seems very likely that the soil on that patch has either a sodium or aluminium content. Both of which are soluble with water flow and deposit in upper layers of the soil profile once the ground water evaporates. If anyone has ever tried to use a detector on bauxite-derived silt, you'll get the picture. Its like a wet beach x10 as far as noise goes. Ive learned from a couple geologists that even zinc infused silt does the same. I'm imagining that this is your issue. I very much want the Axiom to be the detector that everyone uses as a bench mark for years to come and shakes ML from their comfort zone, so I hope your future evaluations bring a smile to your face. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Herschbach Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 7 hours ago, jasong said: He does it get it fairly stable (for highly variable ground anyways) in that video he posted by switching to Normal and re-ground balancing. The problems he was pointing out I think are two: it won't pick up the 0.1 gram nugget when he does achieve stability, and it seems to "false" when coil touches the ground. (I'm using "false" for lack of a better term there). Case 1 w/nugget sensitivity - It's normal to lose sensitivity to smaller gold for any PI in highly variable ground. I think you are saying the same thing too? Also his X (I assume its X?) is going from 50 to 60, while Lunk's is going 58 to 62. So it's definitely more variable ground - thus should be expected to be tougher to get stable without more sensitivity loss. Case 2 the part where the coil touches the ground can indicate a bad coil or some control unit problem in another PI though, hard to tell from the vid. But again, in highly variable soils this also happens with my 45, 6, and 7 as the control unit struggles to recompute quick enough (that's what it feels like anyways). Even just tapping the coil against a rock in these cases is enough to cause this ground signaling. It almost only ever happens in highly variable X ground, just being hot ground usually isn't enough. Anyways, that's the report distilled into the two relevant issues I think. This stuff is all normal with other PI's. I guess the question really is "what is normal and abnormal with an Axiom"? Is there really a problem here? Have to admit my interest is selfish here as working highly variable wash bottoms is one of the main reasons I still have a lot of interest in watching Axiom performance. Left almost all the really variable washes undetected, sort of a last remaining bastion my 6 and 7 won't work at all in. But I can see a potential for my comments being counterproductive here as well since I simply know nothing about the Axiom in specific - if that's the case please let me know and I'll just lurk again. ? I’ve said I think it’s defective based on my use, Lunk says the same, the lead engineer concurs. How many more opinions are needed that something is not right? I left myself an out with my statement though because unless it’s me there on the ground holding the detector in my own hands, there is a degree of speculation left, not 100% certainty. I’ve never had a hint of coil knock ever, with any Axiom coil, on any ground, at any setting. That enough is all I need to see to say something is not right. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aureous Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 8 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said: I’ve never had a hint of coil knock ever, with any Axiom coil, on any ground, at any setting. That enough is all I need to see to say something is not right. Maybe Im missing something in this very long thread, but GB states that in other locations, the Axiom runs amazingly well? Im thinking that the knock noise is a coil axis issue due to the severe soil. In these mineral soil conditions, the soil becomes conductive like salt but worse. In the zinc soil I mentioned, the Geologists could run a DC current thru the dirt for several meters. The earth field becomes amplified also. But like you said Steve, without physically being there, its all guess work and we could all be completely wrong.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Bush Posted December 26, 2022 Author Share Posted December 26, 2022 6 hours ago, peterinaust said: In the new year, was thinking of a 6000 and followed the problems it was having and seems to be ok now. And then the Axiom came along and made me lean more towards the Axiom, and you started having trouble (looks like the only one though) should be a few more in oz by now? you would think. Thank you so much for posting and spending so much time to try and get to the bottom of this problem, when you could be out finding gold. I wander if Garrett in the US follow DP? and chase it up with Garrett in oz. From what we hear Garrett are very good with warranty. We will see. Thank you thank you for posting. Cheers Peter. I Absolutely nothing wrong with going for a 6000. Given a suitable location and with a Nugget Finder Exceed 12 x 7 and 16 x 10 you absolutely will find good gold. My counsel however would be to wait. While I have heard from varied sources that current production 6000’s are ok, it was only 3 moths ago when one of the group bought a 6000 and it lasted one day. I assume this type of thing as what you are referring to. Having said that I must stress that Minelab have been absolutely, unequivocally, fantastic in their response to any issues we have had. Same person who got the dead 6000 also had a 7000 that was out of warranty but hardly used until mid this year when it failed. Turns out the 19” coil shorted and fried something in the control box. On the same day they received it, Minelab repaired the 7000, replaced the defective 19” coil and shipped it back out at no charge. Given their currently exceptional levels of service, I think the potential failure of a 6000 control unit should be a minor consideration when making a purchase decision. Coils, not so much ? My reason for suggesting you wait is because I believe that Axiom, with aftermarket coils, will be a better overall package than 6000. Cant see it being a long wait either. Garrett did the smart thing and avoided the temptation to include some form of ? proprietary chip or whatever so only their coils or those licensed by them can be used. This means, and I know for a fact it is already happening, coil manufacturers will be designing and releasing coil alternatives very quickly, especially as first in usually takes the largest market share and therefore an insurmountable lead in the market. I do think it will be slightly different than the aftermarket coil rollout for the 6000 though. Mono 11” coils for the 6000 fail with such alarming regularity that I went through 5 up until Rohan at NF sent me a 12 x 7 developmental coil to use. The time between 6000 release and the first aftermarket coils from Coiltek being available was over a year. At this point 6000 had built its reputation as the absolute leader on fine gold and subsequently reached a high level of uptake. Not market saturation of potential buyers but close. So now you’ve got thousands of 6000 owners pissed at their failing coils and looking for options. Therefore, as soon as Coiltek released their offerings they couldn’t keep up with demand for months. With Axiom, detector stock is somewhat limited and there are not as many Garrett groupies as Minelab. Hand built machines made in the USA have a drastically different production process than a 6000. So with the ability to get coils into the market in maybe a quarter of the time it took for the 6000 and a much lower number of available buyers, I doubt there will be the scarcity that has accompanied coil releases for Minelab machines. I note that Garrett Australia does not have the accessory coils for Axiom (like the 11 x 7 DD) listed on their website. This leads me to believe that aftermarket coils for Axiom may well be readily available before Garrett themselves can reliably stock and offer the full range of their own accessory coils. If you have your Christmas present money burning a hole in your pocket and are impatient like most of us, it’s unlikely you would regret buying a 6000 over Axiom. Because the amount and quality of food on my table is in direct proportion to what gold I find, obviously, I always want to know that whatever is attached to my arm will, for whatever reason, provide me with the best possible chance of success. Hence I am an early adopter and tend to want the newest thing out for my money in the assumption (read: Hope) that it will give me an advantage. Should you be one of those lucky enough to call gold prospecting a hobby rather than employment, you can maybe afford to wait and make a much more informed decision. Hope this helps ? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aureous Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 1 hour ago, Gone Bush said: I do think it will be slightly different than the aftermarket coil rollout for the 6000 though. Mono 11” coils for the 6000 fail with such alarming regularity that went through 5 up until Rohan at NF sent me a 12 x 7 developmental coil to use. I hope your evaluation of the 12x7 is a premonition of my own experience next month.....only been waiting since June. I will be using nothing else for a long time methinks, even though I was lucky enuff to receive a 'good' 11" with my 6000. 1 hour ago, Gone Bush said: Because the amount and quality of food on my table is in direct proportion to what gold I find, obviously, I always want to know that whatever is attached to my arm will, for whatever reason, provide me with the best possible chance of success. Been there, done that. I was a big fan of buying new gear, eating steak, drinking whiskey each night on the good weeks......not a fan of eating 2 year old spaghetti from a tin and not even a beer for a wash-down on the bad weeks.... Always best to have a back-up source of income before heading out 'professional'. Thankfully, these days even 5 grams of gold a week with a 6000 can keep you in food, fuel and a little grog if you live rough in the bush. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Bush Posted December 26, 2022 Author Share Posted December 26, 2022 4 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said: I’ve said I think it’s defective based on my use, Lunk says the same, the lead engineer concurs. How many more opinions are needed that something is not right? I left myself an out with my statement though because unless it’s me there on the ground holding the detector in my own hands, there is a degree of speculation left, not 100% certainty. I’ve never had a hint of coil knock ever, with any Axiom coil, on any ground, at any setting. That enough is all I need to see to say something is not right. So, Steve, Lunk and lead engineer, you are correct. Definitely a faulty unit. Start the morning on a patch that I would guess is a 6 for mineralisation. East of Kalgoorlie about 20 klms. Cant be sure as Fiona has headed back to Perth with her 4800. Axion is perfect, runs like a dream. Not only that but in fine with sensitivity on 6, 7 and sometimes 8. Bootiful. Wouldn’t recommend 8 for everyone but I run 6000 maxed out so am used to that style of detecting. No gold but the usual suspects, shotgun pellets, swarf, rusty shit from kero and tobacco tins etc etc. There was a .22 projectile I heard at about 11 inches down that surprised me. One side mangled from hitting something then I guess deflecting into the ground? Unusually deep for a .22 though. Had me wondering if I was on previously disturbed ground. Switch off, Axiom and I go inside to make a sandwich for lunch (I have a Land Cruiser with air conditioned single man’s quarters on the back) and reply/post a couple of posts on here. After lunch, bit over an hour later, switch back on and Boom Crash Opera has a concert in the goldfields. Back to how it was in the creek. Unusable. Definitely a fault of some kind that comes and goes at will. So each occasion it ran well was obviously because it was running normally and each occasion it was shit was due to this intermittent fault. Reset, DD coil, power cycles, nothing helps. Annoying but at least I know for sure now. Sorry I doubted you Steve mate friend….. Hopefully Garrett Australia are paying attention and have a replacement available. What this also tells me is that on ground like yesterday out Leonora road that is a pain for 6000, fault free Axiom ran smoother than a supermodels ass. So congrats on that Garrett, a winner on that shitty ground. Conclusion for me, based on no fault operation, is it’s really just the next step in detector evolution. 6000 will find gold so small that a $100 set of scales can’t weigh it so trying to find anything smaller than that would be redundant. Ground balancing is what sets it apart. Meaning a borderline target on 6000 maxed out could well be swallowed up in ground noise (especially on ground like where we were yesterday) whereas Axiom seems better at holding back that ground noise to bring an otherwise marginal target to your attention. So I guess it’s not finding deeper nuggets per se, just enabling you to better hear what you would likely miss with 6000. Kind of work smarter not harder. Notwithstanding it being faulty, I do love it. And with some aftermarket coils I am confident there is more depth to be had. Anyway, mines definitely cactus so need another one! Best wishes to all, and thank you for your help and suggestions, it means a lot, Ray 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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