What Would Old Hank Say About The Manticore?

[strick]

1 hour ago, TampaBayBrad said:

There has to be a benefit of the "50% more power" beyond a higher more powerful high end max sensitivity setting that nobody can use. What would be the point of the cost of designing, engineering more powerful equipment if nobody could ever use that power?

It has to do with where you hunt...mild ground cranking up the power will get you some extra depth. Cranking up the power too high  in hot ground will get you frustration. It’s not a one size fits all type of thing. 

Strick

[TampaBayBrad]

12 minutes ago, strick said:

It has to do with where you hunt...mild ground cranking up the power will get you some extra depth. Cranking up the power too high  in hot ground will get you frustration. It’s not a one size fits all type of thing. 

Strick

I get that....been detecting many years.

I'm just saying I don't think the 50% thing is just adding another couple numbers to the max sensitivity on the high end of the scale. In other words, let's say Nox can go to 30 sensitivity on a certain scale, but MC can go to 35 on the same scale. I don't think that's what the new 50% more power claim is referring to. I think it's more of a combined power at all the freqs:

"Multi-IQ+ transmits more power through the coil at a wider range of operating frequencies, to light up more targets in the ground. "

So I'm thinking you get some power benefit from Multi-IQ+ even if your not using the hot 30-35 range on the sensitivity setting.

[Chase Goldman]

2 hours ago, TampaBayBrad said:

Never be able to use the extra power? What's the point of developing a detector with it then?

I ran the manticore on first hunt wet salt sand at a sensitivity setting (24) that was just starting to get "chatty" after ground balance and long press  noise cancel. Not annoying chatty, but audible with coil bumps and slight background that is easy to ignore. Not sure if you are assuming the extra power doesn't kick in until you're up closer to the 35 max setting? I'm not sure that that is how it works. 

I was thinking that my 70% of max setting would be more powerful than an equal 70% of max on the Nox. There has to be a benefit of the "50% more power" beyond a higher more powerful high end max sensitivity setting that nobody can use. What would be the point of the cost of designing, engineering more powerful equipment if nobody could ever use that power?

 

52 minutes ago, strick said:

It has to do with where you hunt...mild ground cranking up the power will get you some extra depth. Cranking up the power too high  in hot ground will get you frustration. It’s not a one size fits all type of thing. 

Strick

 

28 minutes ago, TampaBayBrad said:

So I'm thinking you get some power benefit from Multi-IQ+ even if your not using the hot 30-35 range on the sensitivity setting.

A lot to unpack here technically, because there are some definite misconceptions and conflating of technical characteristics here.

First of all, TampBayBrad - Strick is right in the sense that in highly mineralized (i.e., hot) ground, increasing coil transmit power is often counterproductive because it tends to "light off" the conductive particles in the soil.  The analogy often used is that it is like turning on high beams in the fog.  This is what George is alluding to, also.  I started typing this before your last reply, so I see you understand that.  Furthermore, I have not seen folks who do use the Manticore in hot dirt complaining about its capabilities with this increased coil power capability.  They seem to be finding stuff just fine.

But the issue with Manticore is that we really do not know what ML means by 50% more power to the coil.  It's a marketing tag line, and while I don't believe it is a false statement, I do believe that ML had to crank coil transmit power up to compensate for something else and not just for raw depth ability (although testing somewhat backs up the notion that the Manticore appears to have marginally better depth than Equinox).  They may have had to do it so that they could more efficiently distribute power in the simultaneous multi-frequency waveform (MultiIQ+) but they may have also done it to combat EMI.  More transmit coil current means the signal-to-noise ratio can be improved, thereby, improving EMI mitigation.  That approach involves a number of other arcane technical tradeoffs, but the marketing folks just ran with 50% more power because is "sounds" great to us - and it obviously worked because, well a lot of folks are waiting for Manticore boats to show up and all that.  

Furthermore, some folks in the thread are mixing up coil power and sensitivity (I think that is what you are driving at Brad).  Sensitivity can be adjusted as necessary to mitigate noise, overload, etc.  But you are NOT adjusting coil transmit power when you adjust sensitivity, you are merely adjusting the sensitivity of the detectors receive circuit to the received signal.  As a matter of fact it is not clear that that the user has any explicit means of adjusting the amount of transmit power to the coil other than through the selection of various modes which likely utilize different (but undocumented) amounts of transmit power.  For example, it is a known fact that on Equinox, coil transmit power is reduced in the Beach modes to enhance stability in salt and black sand (because the black sand issues present similar challenges as mineralized soil).  I don't own a Manticore and don't plan on getting one anytime soon because my Nox 900 and Deus 2 cover my bases for now, so I have not done a deep dive into the manual to determine if coil power is adjusted with mode selection, but I suspect the same approach for beach detecting used in Equinox Multi-IQ is used for Manticore Multi-IQ+.

So yes, Brad, your final quoted statement is true in the sense that adjusting sensitivity on Manticore has nothing to do with adjusting coil transmit power, but because of that higher transmit power, sensitivity might have to be adjusted down to compensate for increased ground noise in hot dirt vs. say the Equinox, all other things being equal.  It is a good thing that ML saw fit to provide a lot of headroom on sensitivity adjustments as that enables you to run the machine on the ragged edge regardless of the site conditions.  I actually get concerned when I hit max sensitivity and all is quiet, that means that the designers likely left some capability on the table.

If nothing else, hope this clears up the difference between coil power and sensitivity for people.

 

[TampaBayBrad]

27 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

 

 

A lot to unpack here technically, because there are some definite misconceptions and conflating of technical characteristics here.

First of all, TampBayBrad - Strick is right in the sense that in highly mineralized (i.e., hot) ground, increasing coil transmit power is often counterproductive because it tends to "light off" the conductive particles in the soil.  The analogy often used is that it is like turning on high beams in the fog.  This is what George is alluding to, also.  I started typing this before your last reply, so I see you understand that.  Furthermore, I have not seen folks who do use the Manticore in hot dirt complaining about its capabilities with this increased coil power capability.  They seem to be finding stuff just fine.

But the issue with Manticore is that we really do not know what ML means by 50% more power to the coil.  It's a marketing tag line, and while I don't believe it is a false statement, I do believe that ML had to crank coil transmit power up to compensate for something else and not just for raw depth ability (although testing somewhat backs up the notion that the Manticore appears to have marginally better depth than Equinox).  They may have had to do it so that they could more efficiently distribute power in the simultaneous multi-frequency waveform (MultiIQ+) but they may have also done it to combat EMI.  More transmit coil current means the signal-to-noise ratio can be improved, thereby, improving EMI mitigation.  That approach involves a number of other arcane technical tradeoffs, but the marketing folks just ran with 50% more power because is "sounds" great to us - and it obviously worked because, well a lot of folks are waiting for Manticore boats to show up and all that.  

Furthermore, some folks in the thread are mixing up coil power and sensitivity (I think that is what you are driving at Brad).  Sensitivity can be adjusted to as necessary to mitigate noise, overload, etc.  But you are NOT adjusting coil transmit power when you adjust sensitivity, you are merely adjusting the sensitivity of the detectors receive circuit to the received signal.  As a matter of fact it is not clear that that the user has any explicit means of adjusting the amount of transmit power to the coil other than through the selection of various modes which likely utilize different (but undocumented) amounts of transmit power.  For example, it is a known fact that on Equinox, coil transmit power is reduced in the Beach modes to enhance stability in salt and black sand (because the black sand issues present similar challenges as mineralized soil).  I don't own a Manticore and don't plan on getting one anytime soon because my Nox 900 and Deus 2 cover my bases for now, so I have not done a deep dive into the manual to determine if coil power is adjusted with mode selection, but I suspect the same approach for beach detecting used in Equinox Multi-IQ is used for Manticore Multi-IQ+.

So yes, Brad, your final quoted statement is true in the sense that adjusting sensitivity on Manticore has nothing to do with adjusting coil transmit power, but because of that higher transmit power, sensitivity might have to be adjusted down compensate for increased ground noise in hot dirt vs. say the Equinox, all other things being equal.  It is a good thing that ML saw fit to provide a lot of headroom on sensitivity adjustments as that enables you to run the machine on the ragged edge regardless of the site conditions.  I actually get concerned when I hit max sensitivity and all is quiet, that means that the designers likely left some capability on the table.

If nothing else, hope this clears up the difference between coil power and sensitivity for people.

 

Thanks for your explanation, Chase. Maybe this section of the manual can enlighten some more:

"FREQUENCIES AND SEARCH MODES Each Search Mode is limited to the frequencies that provide the best performance for that mode. All‑Terrain modes can operate successfully across every available frequency setting, therefore single frequencies are available in All-Terrain. Beach modes can only perform successfully in typical beach conditions in Multi‑IQ+, therefore the single frequencies are not available. Similarly, Goldfield is optimised for detecting low conductive gold nuggets that are more easily detected at higher frequencies. Therefore the lower single frequencies (5, 10 and 15kHz) are not available in this mode. MANTICORE does not have a 4kHz single frequency setting. Instead, the All Terrain High Conductors Search Mode provides a Multi‑IQ+ based mode that can achieve an operating frequency even lower than 4kHz. This provides the benefits of a low frequency/high power mode for detection and discrimination of high conductors, while retaining the substantial benefits of Multi‑IQ+.

MANTICORE Frequencies Frequency (kHz) Multi‑IQ+ 5  10  15  20  40

                                                      All‑Terrain                  

                                                           Beach                    

                                                      Goldfield                    

MULTI-IQ+ OPERATION

Multi‑IQ+ operates across the full spectrum of frequencies simultaneously, allowing it to cover a much broader range of targets than a single frequency can. Multi‑IQ+ delivers superior performance over single frequency operation in almost all conditions. Detecting using Multi‑IQ+ at all times is recommended because:

It gives the best chance of detecting a broad range of targets.

Multi‑IQ+ Target IDs are more stable and accurate than single frequencies"

So I'm thinking the 50% more power claim may be the power required to simultaneously transmit all freqs at the same time? Even a Mine Lab rep in a video I linked in another thread gave vague answers when asked about the 50% more power. He did say it provided another inch to 2 inches of depth. (again vague answer)

[strick]

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

If nothing else, hope this clears up the difference between coil power and sensitivity for people.

 

Thanks for straightening me out Chase I've been guilty of using the term loosely and often have referred to sensitivity/gain as power in the past and dont want to confuse people about what it actually is....

Brad- I don't think Minelab is ever going to tell us what they mean by %50 more power. There is something different about the manticore thats for sure..Had a nice beach hunt with it yesterday and it is a blast to use with it's new deep tone enhancement. 

strick 

[George Kinsey]

10 hours ago, TampaBayBrad said:

Never be able to use the extra power? What's the point of developing a detector with it then?

I ran the manticore on first hunt wet salt sand at a sensitivity setting (24) that was just starting to get "chatty" after ground balance and long press  noise cancel. Not annoying chatty, but audible with coil bumps and slight background that is easy to ignore. Not sure if you are assuming the extra power doesn't kick in until you're up closer to the 35 max setting? I'm not sure that that is how it works. 

I was thinking that my 70% of max setting would be more powerful than an equal 70% of max on the Nox. There has to be a benefit of the "50% more power" beyond a higher more powerful high end max sensitivity setting that nobody can use. What would be the point of the cost of designing, engineering more powerful equipment if nobody could ever use that power?

Tampa, zero minerals is different than the ground I hunt. Wish you success with your choice.

[George Kinsey]

11 hours ago, George Kinsey said:

Chase covered the Tarsacci. I have owned several different Deep Techs. I still have the Vista X, newer Vista Gold. Love them with the Vista X being Super Deep. Have not ventured to Culpeper in a few years but it has no problem in my local soil. One of the deepest minnie balls I ever found was with the Fisher Coinstrike made by the Tarsacci guy.

I'm a Founding member of the Vista X Facebook Group. Chuck Acton and I go way back. To give up his Nautilus for the Vista X speaks volumes to me.

[George Kinsey]

If my Whites 5900 DI SLPro with the separate signal balance control was not so heavy for an Old Stud like me, I would still be using it today on occasion.

[Daniel Tn]

Why didn't you opt for a Garrett Axiom?  You were one of the pulse machine forerunners for relic hunting...was using them long before anyone else was.  It looks like Garrett has the waterproof machine that could handle the beach AND the red Virginia dirt, that doesn't weigh a lot.  That would have ticked more boxes for me if I lived up there vs the Manticore.  

[George Kinsey]

Daniel,

I use the QED Pulse made in Australia now. Medical issues keep me limited in testing new detectors. You did a great job with your wife when you came to Culpeper to Hunt. I first hunted most of the DIV sites back in the early eighties with a Garrett Master Hunter. The plates were the easiest to find due to the metal composition and size. Today I prefer a warm blanket as opposed to a cold hay field. Keep digging as you have the talent. Respectfully, George aka Tex.