A Few Observations On The Manticore, After About 50 Hours (and A Few Recent Nice Finds)...

[BigSkyGuy]

I find the MC to be noisy and falsey as @Steveg mentioned. However, I have found coins that I know were missed with the Equinox 800. I have found that nail falses can be identified by retesting the signal in search mode using very short sweeps after pinpointing the exact spot. Nails will not sound good when sweeping over the exact pinpointed spot. This can be a slow process, but faster than digging nails. Seems to work with my moderately mineralized soils. I use AT-LC about 80% of the time and AT-G 20%.

[Steve Herschbach]

No matter the circumstances, great finds Steve!

Results are as I’ve been expecting and reported almost a year ago based on my prototype experience with the machine and what I know about the main thing Manticore adds to Equinox - a large boost in transmit power. 

On 8/28/2022 at 6:50 PM, Steve Herschbach said:

In real terms they are simply talking about an increase in transmit power over the Equinox. However, that only works in milder ground. Those in the know understand that Equinox incorporates the ability to lower the transmit power to deal with harsh beach scenarios. Otherwise more power simply overloads the detector with ground feedback. So I would expect larger gains in low mineral places like Florida or deep turf, less or no gain in highly mineralized soils, like the west coast beaches in particular. Tom D will no doubt be loving all over this for Florida. People in high mineral areas will wonder what all the fuss is about by comparison.

Sparky target id is also an artifact of boosted transmit power. Basically Manticore is a high strung Equinox with a graphic display and main way to tame the beast is reduced sensitivity until you get a handle on its high performance engine. This would be directly via the Sensitivity control, or through the use of lower power modes, or both together.

I’ll point out there are two major types of “high mineral” to deal with. The western U.S. we mainly deal with magnetite. In Australia it’s maghemite, and the way of dealing with either is different.

[RSmith]

Chesroy —- in my case you are missing the point. It’s not the feeling of peer pressure —- but a knowledge that this machine is finding many great finds in places I have hunted many times with explorers and equinox’s and others over many years. ——— this is what makes me want to study and put in the extra hours to learn to better understand what it is trying to tell me.

Abenson—— my experience in my soil is opposite of yours. I find with the update (stabilizer =0 and filter off) my good targets sound louder, crisper and more detailed than before the update. I am also getting a lot more depth.   Before the update my good targets (unless they were shallow like 3 inch or less)would sound weak, thin and scratchy like a piece of iron or tin foil. They were very hard to tell apart. Now it is much easier.  My soil has a lot of minerals and every swing has multiple grunts like I am over several nails —-(but nothing there when I dug to test) Even using a Pinpointer is hard (tried several brands) because it sounds off on the soil in the sides and bottom of the hole. I struggle to find a spot clean enough to ground balance. It’s not the fault of the Manticore as all my detectors have done this (although with the Manticore the nails false a lot more and they usually sound really good). I suppose this is why the stabilizer really doesn’t help me and degrades the coin as bad or worse than the iron. I assume it sees all the minerals in the dirt and applies it to the target?

Steveg—- you may want to do the update and just turn the stabilizer to zero and that also turns off the filter. This is how I run it now.  If I remember right your soil is about like mine (I’m the one that goes to your stomping grounds for training with USPS and you were going to show me some of your spots, but you got detained at the last minute and couldn’t go)(not been there in 4 years or more)

[steveg]

21 hours ago, Chesroy said:

It does come across to me that some users really are not totally satisfied with the machine and feel that they should spend hours and hours trying to convince themselves to like it otherwise fellow users will look down on them for not trying. Peer pressure I suppose.

I look at this way if a car handles badly or you do not like driving it why spend hours and hours driving it to get used to driving a badly handling car. 

All your doing is getting used to driving a badly handling car ! and forgetting about the fact that it handles badly lol.

 

 

 

 

Chesroy,

In my case, it's not that I'm "trying to convince myself to like it" or result of "peer pressure."  What it is for me, is that I am CERTAIN there are some benefits (albeit possibly small in most scenarios) within the MC, once once "masters" it.  I have a hard time believing that a company as solid as Minelab (in terms of their engineering/physics departments) would work for 5 years on an update to M-IQ, and then release a machine that does not have any additional capabilities.  

So, I guess you could say that it's my trust in Minelab's engineers and physicists that has me sticking with it; I simply believe at this point that if I can tough it out, and work through the frustrations, that there will be some degree of "payoff" in the end...

Steve

[steveg]

19 hours ago, UT Dave said:

I actually really quite like the Manticore.  Even though, I have gone through much of what @steveg has described.  Before the update, I was getting into a really nice groove with the machine.  I think it is deeper than the 800.  And the audio and ID splatter can be learned and exploited.  The ID splatter is only a thing, for me, in my dirt, in the copper penny/clad dime range where I typically dig everything anyway.  On low conductors and in the clad quarter and silver range I don't see much ID splatter at all.  Especially on the low/mid conductor.  I can call nickels on the Manticore crazy good (except for gold rings and broke in half oval tabs - the only two surprises when I'm thinking nickel).  I still have my 800 and have even used it more than a couple of times recently for the 6" coil.  No flies on the 800.  I think it's an awesome machine.  But, I don't see myself going back to it.

I don't like the update though.  Just rolled mine back (again) today.  Had decided to give the update another try, but it really seemed like what you just said @Chesroy.  Like I was punishing myself to try and learn something that I didn't like.  After my initial learning curve on the old version though, I really do, quite, like the Manticore.

@steveg, with your typically red Oklahoma dirt, I don't think I'd be in any hurry to try the update.

- Dave

Dave,

I appreciate the advice (about not doing the upgrade), and will further delay any inclination to update, accordingly.  That said, I would like to have thought that dirt like mine, that seems to exacerbate the "falsing" issues on the MC, especially in ATHC, is EXACTLY what the new update was supposed to address!!  Ugh!

Yes, I agree with you, the MC is pretty good in the nickel range, on ID.  I did dig a "V" that was reporting as low as 23, so it seems that maybe the 23 to 28 range has to be dug, to get all the nickels.  I'm not sure I've seen one flash any 29s yet...

BUT -- that 5-digit range, centered on something close to the air-test value, is not an issue at all, in my books.  Like you said, it's good in the nickel range.  I just wish deeper silver coins would have a similar range, but MORE IMPORTANTLY, with that range centered near the air-test number.  A 79 air-test coin should not ring up high 90s consistently, at 7" to 8" deep...

Just my two cents.

Steve

[steveg]

4 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

No matter the circumstances, great finds Steve!

Results are as I’ve been expecting and reported almost a year ago based on my prototype experience with the machine and what I know about the main thing Manticore adds to Equinox - a large boost in transmit power. 

Sparky target id is also an artifact of boosted transmit power. Basically Manticore is a high strung Equinox with a graphic display and main way to tame the beast is reduced sensitivity until you get a handle on its high performance engine. This would be directly via the Sensitivity control, or through the use of lower power modes, or both together.

I’ll point out there are two major types of “high mineral” to deal with. The western U.S. we mainly deal with magnetite. In Australia it’s maghemite, and the way of dealing with either is different.

Steve,

Excellent post!

First, thanks for the congrats!  If I was only going to dig 3 silver coins, in limited hunting time, on my trip, those are 3 that I'm well-pleased with!

Wow -- what a prescient post you made, a year ago.  Reading that now, you essentially nailed it, now that the rest of us have the benefit of hindsight.  I guess that's what 50 years of detecting experience buys you (that impressive level of insight)!

You mention "low power modes," which I was not aware that the Manticore has.  But, given this discussion, I wonder if a literal "switch" to "drop back" into "Equinox 600/800 power level" might be an interesting consideration for an update, for times when the ground conditions render the increased transmit power just "too much" for one's ears.  And I specifically said "Equinox 600/800 power level," as it seems from others' reports that the 700/900 is ALSO less stable/falsier than the 600/800...which leads me to believe that transmit power was also boosted on the 700/900?

Finally, the differences in how a machine behaves in magnetite vs. maghemite is beyond my understanding; I'm not familiar with maghemite.  But, that's a very interesting observation; if Minelab does most of their "bad dirt" testing on one specific type of "bad dirt," and if U.S. "bad dirt" is different, then I can see where a given machine whose development occurred in Australia might not be as suited to dealing with U.S. dirt...

Steve

[steveg]

1 hour ago, RSmith said:

Chesroy —- in my case you are missing the point. It’s not the feeling of peer pressure —- but a knowledge that this machine is finding many great finds in places I have hunted many times with explorers and equinox’s and others over many years. ——— this is what makes me want to study and put in the extra hours to learn to better understand what it is trying to tell me.

Abenson—— my experience in my soil is opposite of yours. I find with the update (stabilizer =0 and filter off) my good targets sound louder, crisper and more detailed than before the update. I am also getting a lot more depth.   Before the update my good targets (unless they were shallow like 3 inch or less)would sound weak, thin and scratchy like a piece of iron or tin foil. They were very hard to tell apart. Now it is much easier.  My soil has a lot of minerals and every swing has multiple grunts like I am over several nails —-(but nothing there when I dug to test) Even using a Pinpointer is hard (tried several brands) because it sounds off on the soil in the sides and bottom of the hole. I struggle to find a spot clean enough to ground balance. It’s not the fault of the Manticore as all my detectors have done this (although with the Manticore the nails false a lot more and they usually sound really good). I suppose this is why the stabilizer really doesn’t help me and degrades the coin as bad or worse than the iron. I assume it sees all the minerals in the dirt and applies it to the target?

Steveg—- you may want to do the update and just turn the stabilizer to zero and that also turns off the filter. This is how I run it now.  If I remember right your soil is about like mine (I’m the one that goes to your stomping grounds for training with USPS and you were going to show me some of your spots, but you got detained at the last minute and couldn’t go)(not been there in 4 years or more)

Rsmith -- VERY interesting post.

Yes, I recall speaking with you quite awhile back, and the USPS training facility trip that you were supposed to be assigned to.  If that pans out in the future, let me know.  I live very close by to that facility.

VERY interesting how you described what the new update -- but with stabilizer and filter off/set to zero -- does for you.  I can relate exactly to what you described about how the targets deeper than 3" or so sound "weak," for lack of a better word.  Not "solid," like the Equinox.  It's like the machine is "not confident" in IDing the target, and reports too many other tones concurrent with the target's tone...resulting in an "uncertain" hit on a "good" target.  I also know what you mean about the pinpointer in the hole sounding off on the soil, on the machine "grunting" as if there is an iron target in the dirt but none is found (which I call "ground mineral grunts"), etc.  I experience BOTH of these issues, both here, and in PA where I hunt.  In fact, I specifically noted that I had a heck of a time with my pinpointer doing just what you described, in several of the spots I just hunted in PA.  Not that it's anything new, but I had forgotten that it's even worse there, in some sites, than it is here. 

And yes...there are a good many nails that "sound good."  Yes, most of them can be discerned pre-dig, using the various tricks we all use to interrogate a target to decide if it is "just a nail," or not...but I find myself having to really interrogate MANY more of these targets than was the case on the Equinox.  And that really bogs me down...

It's interesting, bottom line, that you feel that the new update, BUT WITH STABILIZER AND FILTER NOT BEING EMPLOYED, results in your good targets being "louder, crisper, and more detailed" than before, and with more depth...

Intriguing.  And like I said, this is going to require some extensive test-garden testing, if/when I finally do feel I'm ready to at least TRY the update; I could envision myself flopping "back and forth" a couple of times, between versions, while doing the test garden testing, to ascertain these details you have described...

Steve

[Steve Herschbach]

1 hour ago, steveg said:

You mention "low power modes," which I was not aware that the Manticore has.  But, given this discussion, I wonder if a literal "switch" to "drop back" into "Equinox 600/800 power level" might be an interesting consideration for an update, for times when the ground conditions render the increased transmit power just "too much" for one's ears.  And I specifically said "Equinox 600/800 power level," as it seems from others' reports that the 700/900 is ALSO less stable/falsier than the 600/800...which leads me to believe that transmit power was also boosted on the 700/900?

It’s right there in the manual, why people find AT LC working when AT HC might be problematic. AT HC boosts the transmit power, which can create blowback in adverse conditions. Target separation suffers as a result.

[Dug D]

I am amazed with the different results we seem to have with the update, at first I felt it was better with more stable IDs while air testing. But it all went bad for me in practical use. I tried all sorts of combinations (including set to 0 and turned off) both on my hunted old yard area as well as 120 yr old park. I understand what the stabilizer and filter are supposed to do and could hear it, but I seemed to not have any finds any more, the one exception was 3 wheats stacked together 6 inches deep, it was the only thing I dug more than 4 inches and my arrows were consistently at 4 arrows and sometimes 5. 

I found myself digging 2-3 inch dimes that I thought would be 7 or 8 inches. 

I switched back and could hit my 6 inch coins in the yard again and dug a couple more. 

I would note that the RED numbers stayed after rolling back.

I noticed that in the video comparing the old and new software, its filled with iron grunts on shallow targets. 

[fishersari]

On 7/29/2023 at 5:21 AM, Dug D said:

I would note that the RED numbers stayed after rolling back

I rolled back too. the RED number is gone on mine. Btw thank you @abenson for showing the differences between old and new software in a video.