Depth Issues After Software Updates

[Jeff McClendon]

I visit several Facebook (Meta) group specific VLF detector sites along with making it a point to regularly come to this awesome forum while also checking in over at Friendly.

I am saddened by what I see being reported as depth issues after performing online available software updates for detectors like Deus 2, Equinox 600/800 and of course, everyones whipping post, the Legend. I have not been to a Manticore Facebook site yet. Maybe there are depth issues being reported there too. I am sure there will be similar issues with the Equinox 700/900 if there ever is an update.

I am saddened because being able to do an online software update is one of the real advantages of these detectors that are offered by their engineering teams. Plus, these really are state of the art, excellent detectors.

It also saddens me because after reading these reports, I wonder if there is something wrong with my software updated detectors, the software itself, the downloaded update tool or are there different board level components or different main PC boards being implemented by some of these manufacturers post production due to supply chain issues that simply work better than the original parts/boards or just the opposite. My last reasonable wondering is: are the variables in computers and their capabilities, operating systems, firewalls, virus prevention software along with the differing quality of various internet data services just too big of a hurdle for these company's software engineers to plan for properly?

Then there is the remote possibility which is just nuts.........are these companies trying to sabotage each others detectors online by infecting each others software and update tools or is there a third party source for this malign behavior. Please tell me that is not going on.

There certainly are a few unfortunate people like D. Smith on this forum and his Legend issues which are real.

There seem to be others that simply are setting up their detectors to fail judging from their postings and supporting videos which usually show improper settings for the task they are trying to do. Then there is the piling on/placebo effect.

Just to put my mind at ease, I took both of my Legends, Manticore, Equinox 800 and Deus 2 with their biggest 11" coils out to my test area to detect some 8"+ deep in the ground small high conductor US coin targets. Even in their most basic/conservative settings BUT with lowered iron filter/iron bias settings and with the iron target IDs/audio accepted, they easily and fairly equally hit all of those targets.

Whooooh, that feels better.

 

 

[phrunt]

7 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

I wonder if there is something wrong with my software updated detectors, the software itself, the downloaded update tool or are there different board level components or different main PC boards being implemented by some of these manufacturers post production due to supply chain issues that simply work better than the original parts/boards or just the opposite.

My last reasonable wondering is: are the variables in computers and their capabilities, operating systems, firewalls, virus prevention software along with the differing quality of various internet data services just too big of a hurdle for these company's software engineers to plan for properly?

Then there is the remote possibility which is just nuts.........are these companies trying to sabotage each others detectors online by infecting each others software and update tools. Please tell me that is not going on.

Although possible a board level component change is affecting certain detectors and not others, I think it's unlikely as the replacement components they would use the engineers would have been testing and verifying they're suitable.  Electronic components have tolerances and I would think the older analog detectors would be more prone to these problems than digital detectors.

We've seen recently the GPX 6000 with detectors having variable performance inductors causing some detectors far worse self-generated EMI problems than others, so that's a recent example of this problem however I think this was more a problem with the quality of the product than anything with varying performance between inductors, every cent matters, so this of course means other components they're using could be causing their own problems.

The computer the end user is performing the update on can have an influence on if the update works, as in their computer may error saying it can't do the update for whatever reason or not detect the detector when plugged in, however if the update goes on the update goes on, the update tool will be doing a Cyclic redundancy check (CRC) on the file to ensure there is no corruption with the firmware prior to updating and then after updating it will compare the CRC to ensure the file once written is the same as the original file like a signature check, if for example the computer doing the firmware update has a RAM problem with the computer corrupting the firmware during transfer the tool flashing it would fail the verification and flash again, or error.   The firmware update I put on my Manticore is the exact same one everyone else has on theirs, there will be no variation caused by the computer used to update it.  

I'm confident manufacturers are not sabotaging others firmware update tools and files 🙂

[Joe D.]

   Thanks for the indepth's, Jeff and Simon!👍

   I was leaning more toward environmental factors/fewer good targets, as being alot of the issues, at least in the US! 

    One of the reasons I keep my old detectors around, as some seem less prone to many of these issues! Sorta reminds me of the transition from vinyl, to tapes, to CD's, to digital music; some specific problems just don't get better with technology (and loose something in translation), no matter how good it is!

   Or I'm just being a nostalgic "old" fool! Either way, it's still just a hobby i enjoy, and i won't loose an sleep over it!🍀👍👍

[Bill (S. CA)]

Jeff,

That was an enjoyable post of yours and frankly I find the subject of perceived depth loss to be amusing, not sad.  Before I get to why I say this, let me state this based on 25+ yeas of field testing and evaluating prototypes for metal detector companies.

It is baloney.  Period. Yes, there can be lost depth issues early on in prototyping and testing metal detectors.  But once the software is locked?  Not a chance.  The minor tweaks are just that.

Now why do I say this?  Well there are a lot of reasons, some of which you touched on.  There are others, for instance:

1. People want to play "gotcha" to show how smart and savvy they are about metal detectors.
2. They want to draw more attention to their YouTube Channels.
3. They want more friends on Facebook.
4. They are just plain dumb.

But for me, the biggest reason you hear this lost depth deal coming up continually is that inherently, most metal detectorists are terribly insecure about their detectors.  They always have to know what settings you are using, even though you live in an entirely different area.  They are constantly searching for the one detector that will do it all and are discouraged that it doesn't exist.  They are consumed with the idea that they are missing good targets,  insisting on searching in all metal in trashed-filed parks so they don't miss the "carpet of gold" that is hidden below the layer of foil and tabs.  And God forbid, the minute they do an update, they get scared when they hit a target that doesn't sound right, or they miss a target that their buddy hit. Or they don't hit a target because their detector is set up wrong.  OMIGOD, they exclaim  "I've lost depth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Give me a break.

Want another example?  You know the new Nokta pinpointer?  Guys are acting like it is going to be a game changer for them and can't wait to get one.  Uh, news flash:  IT'S A PINPOINTER.  Last I checked, you find the target with a metal detector and then if necessary, use the pinpointer for recovery.  Watch Nokta get hammered for lost depth on a pinpointer.  It's coming...

Anyway, don't be sad, Jeff.  As you said, these new detectors are marvelous machines.  They are so superior to detectors of just a few years ago it isn't funny. So laugh the next time a self-anointed social media genius rips an update for lost depth.

Ready for the pun?  Here goes: how shallow of them.

Bill

 

[Jeff McClendon]

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

Although possible a board level component change is affecting certain detectors and not others, I think it's unlikely as the replacement components they would use the engineers would have been testing and verifying they're suitable.  Electronic components have tolerances and I would think the older analog detectors would be more prone to these problems than digital detectors.

We've seen recently the GPX 6000 with detectors have variable performance inductors causing some detectors far worse self-generated EMI problems than others, so that's a recent example of this problem however I think this was more a problem with the quality of the product than anything with varying performance between inductors so this of course means other components they're using could be causing their own problems.

The computer the end user is performing the update on can have an influence on if the update works, as in their computer may error saying it can't do the update for whatever reason or not detect the detector when plugged in, however if the update goes on the update goes on, the update tool will be doing a CRC check on the file to ensure there is no corruption with the firmware prior to updating and then after updating it will compare the CRC to ensure the file once written is the same as the original file like a signature check, if for example the computer doing the firmware update has a RAM problem with the computer corrupting the firmware during transfer the tool flashing it would fail the verification and flash again, or error.   The firmware update I put on my Manticore is the exact same one everyone else has on theirs, there will be no variation caused by the computer used to update it.  

I'm confident manufacturers are not sabotaging others firmware update tools and files 🙂

 

 

Simon, thank you for answering these questions so carefully. I literally am just a digital electronics end user with zero experience beyond ancient analog/beginnings of digital component experience where I literally had to physically set binary switches on simple PC boards, replace easy to handle board level parts and run crude spectrum analyzers back in the early 1980s, day after day.

So, could software after its loaded into a modern metal detector or the detector's memory integrity degrade quickly enough to cause some of these issues?

[Jeff McClendon]

1 hour ago, Joe D. said:

   Thanks for the indepth's, Jeff and Simon!👍

   I was leaning more toward environmental factors/fewer good targets, as being alot of the issues, at least in the US! 

    One of the reasons I keep my old detectors around, as some seem less prone to many of these issues! Sorta reminds me of the transition from vinyl, to tapes, to CD's, to digital music; some specific problems just don't get better with technology (and loose something in translation), no matter how good it is!

   Or I'm just being a nostalgic "old" fool! Either way, it's still just a hobby i enjoy, and i won't loose an sleep over it!🍀👍👍

Hi Joe,

I think some of this lack of depth perception can be lack of deep targets related, weather and seasonal changes, grass is taller in the spring and summer.......stuff like that.

I have to say however, at least where I hunt, these newer detectors are absolutely amazing compared to what at the time were outstanding single frequency VLFs that I used even 10 years ago.

[Jeff McClendon]

56 minutes ago, Bill (S. CA) said:

Jeff,

That was an enjoyable post of yours and frankly I find the subject of perceived depth loss to be amusing, not sad.  Before I get to why I say this, let me state this based on 25+ yeas of field testing and evaluating prototypes for metal detector companies.

It is baloney.  Period. Yes, there can be lost depth issues early on in prototyping and testing metal detectors.  But once the software is locked?  Not a chance.  The minor tweaks are just that.

Now why do I say this?  Well there are a lot of reasons, some of which you touched on.  There are others, for instance:

1. People want to play "gotcha" to show how smart and savvy they are about metal detectors.
2. They want to draw more attention to their YouTube Channels.
3. They want more friends on Facebook.
4. They are just plain dumb.

But for me, the biggest reason you hear this lost depth deal coming up continually is that inherently, most metal detectorists are terribly insecure about their detectors.  They always have to know what settings you are using, even though you live in an entirely different area.  They are constantly searching for the one detector that will do it all and are discouraged that it doesn't exist.  They are consumed with the idea that they are missing good targets,  insisting on searching in all metal in trashed-filed parks so they don't miss the "carpet of gold" that is hidden below the layer of foil and tabs.  And God forbid, the minute they do an update, they get scared when they hit a target that doesn't sound right, or they miss a target that their buddy hit. Or they don't hit a target because their detector is set up wrong.  OMIGOD, they exclaim  "I've lost depth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Bill, I really enjoyed reading your post and I agree with most of it.

Bill, these sentences are about me by the way:

"They are constantly searching for the one detector that will do it all and are discouraged that it doesn't exist.  They are consumed with the idea that they are missing good targets,  insisting on searching in all metal in trashed-filed parks so they don't miss the "carpet of gold" that is hidden below the layer of foil and tabs."

I haven't been able to find "the One". I have four VLFs right now that come pretty close.

I definitely hunt those four in almost all metal (I notch out the two or three lowest iron numbers to take care of magnetite) and I definitely hunt a lot of full auto machine gun fire carpeted levels of aluminum and steel trashed parks and school yards where the amount of targets I hear is impossible to count even in a minute of detecting.

And yet, I am having my best year ever both for the amount of US clad, silver jewelry and especially deeper silver coins. Gold jewelry has fallen off a little but it's still happening. I have already found more in the ten months of this year than I did all of last year and I was out of commission for the entire month of January. I did better last year than the year before and I couldn't walk during most of November and December of 2022. Ever since I got my hands on an Equinox, my finds have steadily increased, not decreased and these newer detectors like Deus 2, Manticore and the Legend just keep finding deeper, good quality targets even through a sea of modern trash.

That Is what saddens me or at least makes me feel weird. I am cleaning up with the same detectors, running the same software, on deep targets in way worse ground conditions than many of those that are reporting depth issues.

[phrunt]

Flash roms and EEPROMS that are used for this sort of thing are very reliable for data integrity.  I've got 15+ year old motherboards where the firmware on them is still holding as new, the same bios on there perfectly fine even though they're rarely if ever used.  There is little to worry about in regards to this.  If it were a problem our cars and everything would be playing up, their software is stored on the same stuff and has been for 10+ years 🙂 

 

  

[DSMITH]

8 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

There certainly are a few unfortunate people like D. Smith on this forum and his Legend issues which are real.

The issues I am seeing Jeff I do not believe are due to 1.11 version but rather an issue with the way both of my legends accepted the 1.11 update, i also believe those that are having the issues of reported depth loss is not due to the 1.11 version update, I have my reasons for stating this which I have relayed to you in a PM, but I will post some of it here

i acquired what I call a new version Legend control pod, which is a control pod that has only ever had 1.11 version in it, it came from the factory with 1.11 already installed and 1.11 is the only version that has ever been in this particular control pod.

I also do not believe this is an issue with all legends but just some of the first and possibly second runs of the Legends in other words the ones that came with 1.04 and 1.05, the older Units, and not even all of the first Legends just some of the first production runs of Legends.

in my comparisons between my older Legends and this new version control pod I am seeing a huge depth difference between the three units and when I say a huge depth difference i am talking anywhere from 6-8 inches of difference in depth between this new control pod and my two older Legends, my first Legend was originally a 1.04 version from the very first batch that hit the U.S my second Legend was originally a 1.05 version Legend, on the same targets and same ground all settings equal in A (All Metal) mode, I am seeing a huge depth difference of anywhere from 6-8 inches

both of my Legends were working fantastic, yes I had a few issues with update installs but mainly due to the very first installer tool (which many of us had issues with that installer tool), when I ran the three beta test versions 1.10 beta test version 1,2, and 3 i only had issues with beta test version 2, Beta Test version 3 I only installed on my first legend I purchased, I could not have ask for a detector to perform any better than that detector performed so when 1.11 came out I installed it with out hesitation and with out any issues other than one which did concern me, after I installed the 1.11 was when I started seeing all the issues 

the one concern I had and still to this day concerns me is how 1.11 ended up in my PC, it just magically appeared out of the blue without me having to go to Nokta's site and download it, it was just there, which has always bothered me, because all the past updates we all had to go to nokta site, download what ever update was new at the time and then Extract the files and install on our Legends, but this was not the case with 1.11 also all the past updates in the instructions was to shut down firewalls and anti virus protections this was also not the case with 1.11, like I stated 1.11 just miraculously appeared in my PC on the updater tool without having to do anything, this has never sat well with me and I am not sure had the update not ended up on my PC the way it did if I would have seen any of the issues I have seen since installing the 1.11 version

I am compiling some video comparisons that I will be sending to Nokta showing this but the videos are going slow because I have been having some back issues with some of my lower back Disc on my right lower back so I can only do as much as I can until my back says to stop, I ended up in the hospital because of this shortly after receiving this new control pod and yes it was sent to me with no charge from Andy at we Dig, it is taking me a bit to do the videos but I am slowly getting them together

[Joe D.]

DSmith,

   Sorry to hear both your health, and software issues! Hope you feel better!!🙏🍀

   Hopefully Nokta can verify your strange appearing software! They would know!! Sounds very suspicious to me, sorta like the messages we get on our phones that are obviously spam and scams! Plenty of hackers that have the skills to do stuff like that!

   Glad to hear the Legend(s) are doing well otherwise, and if you have posted about how it compares to the two "top dogs" right now, other than cost, I missed it, and would be interested in reading! I had pre-ordered one, before release, but reeled myself in at the last minute, when there was a delay!!🍀👍👍