Depth Issues After Software Updates

[schoolofhardNox]

I notice depth reduction on the Manticore when I enter a high EMI area. You have to get out of multi frequency or you will get so much chatter (target ID included, that you can easily miss targets. I think most depth loss is due to not picking the best settings for the situation. Can't comment on the update affecting depth, since I never up date any of my machines. When it comes to EMI updates or Iron falsing updates, my opinion is that the engineers do not actually solve the problem, but merely find a way to quiet the machine down, usually at some expense to us.  That's just my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree, but I just can't believe engineers wouldn't have already thought of the fix to the common problems that occur prior to releasing a machine. Iron falsing and EMI are not new issues. You would think that they would be aware of them by now without listening to our complaints 😄

[DSMITH]

7 hours ago, schoolofhardNox said:

I notice depth reduction on the Manticore when I enter a high EMI area. You have to get out of multi frequency or you will get so much chatter (target ID included, that you can easily miss targets. I think most depth loss is due to not picking the best settings for the situation. Can't comment on the update affecting depth, since I never up date any of my machines. When it comes to EMI updates or Iron falsing updates, my opinion is that the engineers do not actually solve the problem, but merely find a way to quiet the machine down, usually at some expense to us.  That's just my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree, but I just can't believe engineers wouldn't have already thought of the fix to the common problems that occur prior to releasing a machine. Iron falsing and EMI are not new issues. You would think that they would be aware of them by now without listening to our complaints 😄

I would agree with you if and this is a big if all three detectors are acting the same, the fact is and you most likely missed this my Loaner control pod is working flawlessly running the same settings on the same ground and same targets, the issues I am seeing has nothing to do with EMI, multi frequency or anything else like that, the loaner pod is seeing targets 6-8 inches deeper and on some targets even deeper

Trust me I have been in this metal detecting game long enough to know when EMI is affecting my VLF detectors or not

 

You may have missed this also but here it is again prior to installing the 1.11 version on both my detectors I was having no issues at all in fact here is something else you may have missed or just not read, on one of my Legends my one that was originally a 1.04 version Legend I was testing the 1.10 beta test versions again the only one of those three Beta test versions that I had any issues at all was the Beta test version 2, 1.10 Beta test version 3 like I stated I could have asked for nothing more out of a detector it was running fantastic, the 1.10 Beta test versions were the pre cursor to 1.11 and 1.11 should have come out Identical to 1.10 Beta test version 3 but and this is a huge but it did not on either of my Legends, in fact my initial install of 1.11 my Legend that I had done all the testing with of the beta test versions it had a huge depth loss and what I mean by huge depth loss is it would not even see a target unless that target was setting on the surface and the coil was almost touching that target, it went from seeing targets that were 4-14 inches deep in my test bed, to not being able to se a target that was rite on the surface with the coils almost touching the targets, I took it back in and re installed the 1.11 version

(my test bed has been in the ground for almost 1.5 years) at the time

(and yes i performed a factory default reset) it took me 3 re installs and factory resets before I could finally get that legend too hit a target at 3 inches deep, i have done what I mentioned above and it has not helped at all.

I was able to get one of my Legends to start performing again but it was not with 1.11, I had someone that sent me a version 1.80 (which is a version that none of us normal end users had no clue even existed) it was never released to us normal users, I had to use the old update installer to install that 1.80 on my Legend which I choose to install it on my oldest Legend, this 1.80 has all the same features as 1.09, it does not have the BC, or GS features nor does it have the AG feature in gold mode once I installed this 1.80 my issues went away, which I know most would say hey just run with that since it works sorry that is not me I want all the features whether I use them or not, I want them there to have access to all the tools at hand if needed, 1.11 is the current update or version and 1.11 is a good version on some of the Legends.

[GB_Amateur]

Another person who has shown (in videos) real effects, in his situation (emphasize ground conditions) the loss of depth performance with an update, is Andrew (abenson here).  That is with the ML Manticore.  Minelab even sent him a replacement control unit (or was it a full detector?) and that also showed the degraded performance with the update under certain conditions.

I used to be suspicious that people were just fooling themselves (sidelight:  if you really want to open your eyes, see the book Predictably Irrational which interestingly is now the basis of a weekly network TV drama on NBC TV here in the USA).  I still think that is what's going on 90% of the time, but situations like Andrew's have enlightened me that this isn't always the case.

 

[DSMITH]

23 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

Another person who has shown (in videos) real effects, in his situation (emphasize ground conditions) the loss of depth performance with an update, is Andrew (abenson here).  That is with the ML Manticore.  Minelab even sent him a replacement control unit (or was it a full detector?) and that also showed the degraded performance with the update under certain conditions.

I used to be suspicious that people were just fooling themselves (sidelight:  if you really want to open your eyes, see the book Predictably Irrational which interestingly is now the basis of a weekly network TV drama on NBC TV here in the USA).  I still think that is what's going on 90% of the time, but situations like Andrew's have enlightened me that this isn't always the case.

 

it is easy for different people to just blow things off as (USER ERROR) which I do believe happens, that is what I have gotten from numerous people telling me I am full of crap that there is nothing wrong with the 1.11 (if that were only true) with some of the Legends, i could eventually work through trying to get both my Legends to perform as they should I have contacted several people one of which started this thread @Jeff McClendon, nothing has helped like I stated i do not believe there is an issue with the latest version, but I do believe there is an issue with the way some of the older Legends accepted  the 1.11 update, what it is I have absolutely no clue, I am not even sure Nokta can figure out why one Legend works as it should on 1.11 and another Legend falls flat on its face while running 1.11, or how a Legend that in my mind was running flawlessly on one version then I install what was supposed to be the finalized version of that same version and everything went sideways completely.

I believe there is an issue internally like a bad board or something, but actually have absolutely no clue, all I do know is when you have over $1500 tied up in two detectors and they do not or will no longer perform it is pretty frustrating to say the least, and you contact people to try to get them to help you figure it out and all you get is (USER ERROR) to be honest it chaps my ASS and leaves a bad taste in my mouth, could I ever in good conscience recommend a Legend to anyone, if i could get mine to run like what I seen in 1.10 Beta Test version 3 or this new control pod absolutely with out a doubt (and I have ) recommended the Legend to people but I cannot with the way both my older legends are running ever recommend the Legend again to anyone until Nokta or someone figures this out as to why some Legends work great and others are dogs, it is that simple for me.

[DIG5050]

It is frustrating when things go wrong through no fault of your own.  I certainly get that.  It is possible that Nokta has made revisions to the board for whatever reason that makes the older units slightly different than current production.  Every manufacturer can and does do this at times.

As of 10-28-2023, Nokta has included V1.13 with the update tool, as well as other firmware releases back to 1.05. The release notes say that V1.13 - "This update allows for easy switching of the Bluetooth headphones connection between AccuPOINT and The Legend, and better compatibility with your devices."  Maybe Nokta has already determined that some devices (Legends) may not be fully compatible with the V1.11 firmware update.

Here is what I would do:

First, I would remove all previously installed versions of the updater tool from your PC.

Next, I would download the latest installer form Nokta, and install V1.13, perform the factory reset, and then see if the problem is corrected.

In answer to the question regarding the update 1.11 "already being there". If/when you downloaded the installer, V1.11 was most likely included, and that is why it appeared in a list of possible firmware updates to load onto the Legend.

I hope some of this is helpful and you can get back to detecting with your machines.

I had issues updating my Apex when the last firmware release and the USB port was the culprit. It was frustrating to have the unit become "bricked" and then later corrected when a different port was used.

[Jeff McClendon]

22 minutes ago, DIG5050 said:

The release notes say that V1.13 - "This update allows for easy switching of the Bluetooth headphones connection between AccuPOINT and The Legend, and better compatibility with your devices." 

The phrase "better compatibility with your devices" refers to the AccuPOINT pinpointer wirelessly pairing with all Legend models and the most recent 15 kHz Simplex models. I assume it will also pair with the new Score and Double Score models too.

Your uninstall all previous update tools suggestion is a good one. I always do that whether I am using a Mac or PC just to be safe and to get the latest update tool.

I have several current computers that have successfully downloaded and installed software updates on my updatable detectors. I offered to do that for D Smith's Legends. Maybe he will take me up on that offer.

[abenson]

On 10/26/2023 at 2:31 PM, GB_Amateur said:

Another person who has shown (in videos) real effects, in his situation (emphasize ground conditions) the loss of depth performance with an update, is Andrew (abenson here).  That is with the ML Manticore.  Minelab even sent him a replacement control unit (or was it a full detector?) and that also showed the degraded performance with the update under certain conditions.

I used to be suspicious that people were just fooling themselves (sidelight:  if you really want to open your eyes, see the book Predictably Irrational which interestingly is now the basis of a weekly network TV drama on NBC TV here in the USA).  I still think that is what's going on 90% of the time, but situations like Andrew's have enlightened me that this isn't always the case.

 

Chuck in the case of the Manticore, it simply came down to settings that worked on the previous software, wouldn't work on the new software. I now use the latest software with no issues, but it required me to make drastic setting changes to make it work in my soil. User error? Probably, but it does irritate me that these companies make changes to software without testing the results in multiple soil types to make sure it's going to work.

[phrunt]

30 minutes ago, abenson said:

 it does irritate me that these companies make changes to software without testing the results in multiple soil types to make sure it's going to work.

Especially with the changelog there was no mention of any changes that would cause your problems.

[GB_Amateur]

1 hour ago, abenson said:

Chuck in the case of the Manticore, it simply came down to settings that worked on the previous software, wouldn't work on the new software. I now use the latest software with no issues, but it required me to make drastic setting changes to make it work in my soil. User error? Probably, but it does irritate me that these companies make changes to software without testing the results in multiple soil types to make sure it's going to work.

Thanks for that clarification, Andrew, and I'm glad you found a solution.  You certainly seemed to have earned it.  Your experience is one more reminder (and I hope I have it etched in my brain now) that with these detectors that have so many adjustment options, it's vitally important to learn which ones are likely to matter and then fiddle with them at a new site to get things fine tuned.  That's true whether an update has been installed or not.

Apparently these software updates can effectively take one detector out of your hands and put another one there, even if cosmetically it's the same detector.  But I do appreciate that Minelab (do all companies?) allow us to back out of an update and revert to the old software/detector.  It certainly can be frustrating/exasperating for something that works to be seemingly taken away with no option to get back to the start.  Reversability is always high on my pre-change checklist.

[DSMITH]

7 hours ago, DIG5050 said:

It is frustrating when things go wrong through no fault of your own.  I certainly get that.  It is possible that Nokta has made revisions to the board for whatever reason that makes the older units slightly different than current production.  Every manufacturer can and does do this at times.

As of 10-28-2023, Nokta has included V1.13 with the update tool, as well as other firmware releases back to 1.05. The release notes say that V1.13 - "This update allows for easy switching of the Bluetooth headphones connection between AccuPOINT and The Legend, and better compatibility with your devices."  Maybe Nokta has already determined that some devices (Legends) may not be fully compatible with the V1.11 firmware update.

Here is what I would do:

First, I would remove all previously installed versions of the updater tool from your PC.

Next, I would download the latest installer form Nokta, and install V1.13, perform the factory reset, and then see if the problem is corrected.

In answer to the question regarding the update 1.11 "already being there". If/when you downloaded the installer, V1.11 was most likely included, and that is why it appeared in a list of possible firmware updates to load onto the Legend.

I hope some of this is helpful and you can get back to detecting with your machines.

I had issues updating my Apex when the last firmware release and the USB port was the culprit. It was frustrating to have the unit become "bricked" and then later corrected when a different port was used.

Well here is the thing which I did not mention, I have done as you stated went through and deleted all old update files and all old driver files and did a complete clean of everything in my PCs and then downloaded a new fresh update file from Nokta's site, it did not help in fact I have done this as stated above probably 20 times to no avail, I also even went as far as purchasing a new PC just for the purposes of the updates of the Legend and the only version that has been put on that PC is a fresh download of the 1.11 software update it has not helped, I have tried reverting back to 1.09 it did not help, as I stated the only thing that did help is I used one of my PCs which had the older first update installer on it and installed a 1.80 version that a friend sent me (I believe that was a beta version that was sent to testers) none of us normal end users never knew this version existed it was never released to us normal end users that 1.80 version was when I finally was able to start seeing good things again.

When I was sent this loaner control pod I reinstalled 1.11 on my older Legends to do the comparisons because I wanted to do apples for apples comparisons not apples to plums, when I re installed 1.11 on my two older Legend everything went sideways again, I did this re install using a brand new PC that has only ever had one download of the 1.11 in it, it is not normal at all

I have seriously thought about downloading the 1.13 version and install it on one of my Legends just to see if it changes anything or jars something loose in the brain of my one of my older Legends just to see if it works any different

 

@Jeff McClendon yes you did offer which i do appreciate that, and I may end up sending the control pods to you but I want to give Nokta a chance to fix this issue how ever that may end up being, I figure all the pains I am going through it may just help others to find out why their Legends lost depth also among other issues (maybe), I do not believe my problems are unique to just my two legends, based on discussions I have had with others that are seeing the same things I have been seeing, those that I have talked to with similar issues like I have had all have older Legends and are pretty much seeing the same things I have seen.