Steve Herschbach

Not really news on the Vanquish if you hang out on Minelab Forum. But since this is the Garrett Forum let’s try and keep things here focused on the Apex or at least the Garrett brand.

Almost nobody and now that I am pitching a fit over it I can’t find one quoted that way on a quick search. I’ve seen it, but now it’s obvious I’m overreacting. Coil Weights Table

No.

No, it wasn’t me. When I’m sent off to hunt gold nuggets my wife does not let me come home until I find some.

And just a note here to point out we are discussing two different issues. The coil connector issue is common on many submersible detectors, though it may be worse on the AQ than in most. It’s not the major concern. It is reports of false signals when salt water runs fast past the coil or is just in salt water at all. In other words, salinity false signals unrelated to the coil connector issue. It is that problem that people are surmising a small coil will help with. A smaller coil does nothing in the case of the coil connector.

It’s not my desires... it’s decades of industry practice, and excluding the cable, an actual attached part of the coil, is not long standing industry practice. It’s some bright marketer pulling a fast one. There are coils that come with different cable lengths. If that is the case, then there needs to be two different weights, one for each coil, because, wait for the drum roll..... the weight when attached to the detector is different. If different length cables was the true issue here, then we would have both coil weights and cable weights, and be able to combine the two to get the full weight. But nobody, including the people that exclude cable weights.... give the cable weight. So you are getting information that is at best incomplete. As far as worrying about two different cables, same length, but slightly different cable so very small weight difference, I don’t think weight has to be taken to three or even two decimal points. Scuff covers are an add on accessory to coils and should not be included in coil weights unless noted that they are included or excluded. Besides, let’s get practical here... You ever try and weigh a coil on a scale and exclude the cable weight? You and I want to compare coil weights, let’s go weigh our coils and get back to each other. What possible utility is served by both of us trying to figure out a way to weigh coils without cables included? Nobody does that. As for your last question Chuck. Trust published detector weights? No, I don’t, because I have proven time and again they are not accurate. But if the assumption is all published weights are bogus anyway, then just don’t bother with weights at all, detectors or coils. It’s all just lies anyway. The bottom line is I have a detector that weighs exactly 4 lbs complete with coil X and I want to know what it will weigh with coil Y. The easiest way to get from here to there is to compare coil weights including cables. If people want to exclude cable weights things get difficult and the room for errors grows. I have been doing this too long, and it bugs me when people switch how things are done or defined. All metal mode meant threshold based unfiltered all metal for decades. Then some marketer called a disc mode with all items set to accept an all metal mode. No, it’s not, it’s a disc mode with all items set to accept. The signal is still being filtered. We’ve been talking around that for years now. Multifrequency meant just that forever... until Nokta/Makro started calling their selectable frequency machines multifrequency. No, they are not. They are single frequency detectors that can switch frequencies. So now we have to come up with a new term, Simultaneous Multi Frequency (SMF) to differentiate what was quite clear before. And coil weight was grab a coil off the shelf and weigh it, cable included, no scuff cover. That is how it’s been done for ages, and the “cable not included” thing is a very new development. Buyer beware.

They have been released and are shipping to dealers and customers as we type. I’m pretty sure there is a thread about that................ right here!

That is a nicer and more deluxe version of what I posted here. Yours is Facebook only.... I can't find a YouTube version yet. Should be arriving at dealer showrooms as we speak, and people who had deposits should be getting detectors within days, next week for sure.

PI detectors are for when a VLF won't produce. If a VLF produces... why use a PI? To dig extra junk? I tell people all the time - use a VLF when you can, and a PI when you have to. There comes a point where you either go PI or quit detecting because the VLF is not producing any more. If you've not got to that point, may as well stick with the VLF.

People weighing coils without cables? I want to know how much weight I add to my detector when I put that coil on, and that ALWAYS includes the cable. Only XP gets a pass on weighing coils without cables. Anyone else.... frankly it's industry standard to weigh coils with cables and doing anything else is deceptive advertising in my opinion. I only weigh 165 lbs (fat not included)!

A person I know that was out there a couple weeks ago actually did get skunked.

As tested against many other detectors, the Equinox did add just that little bit extra that has me squeaking silver where others miss. I guess the businessman in me simply discounts the idea that Garrett would come up with something that matches Minelabs 20 year head start, and then quietly stick it in their low end range. It makes more sense to me that the Apex AT would not only be waterproof, but have that little extra punch. Garrett has stated there is no rush on coming out with the next Multi-Flex model, and I suspect that time will be well spent taking what is learned with Apex to create the higher price AT version. I’m simply betting that with the Apex Garrett is leaving a little something on the table for later and being careful not to completely gut their AT sales.

Rick asks a great question in his original post. I really like the F44 housing. Now, the F19 was derived from the Gold Bug Pro. As such they added features to a detector with a minimal control set and that makes for some weird control options. Instead of another F19 knockoff like the Time Ranger Pro, matching the F19 guts and features up with the F44 hardware would make things interesting. At the least I would think a weatherproof Gold Bug would be well received.

I was not trying to imply the machine has no depth. An Ace 400 would surprise most people in that regard.

Thanks, good info. Perhaps you could repeat / elaborate on this thread?

I do get into it all including the QED in the aforementioned thread on inexpensive PI detectors. The only reason I don’t have a QED is they have no U.S. dealers or service. My opinion about the machine is based on every forum QED post. You can read them also and come to your own conclusions. It appears to be a very decent detector at a great price. Maybe a couple quirks, but all machines have those. It honestly has been a sort of work in progress moving target for several years, so partly I have been waiting for the design to settle down. While I’ve done that, other detectors that do have U.S. service and support have come into view, and I decided to wait preferentially on those. I have an Impulse AQ right now and like what I’m seeing, so I’m more than happy to wait and see what the nugget version does. And now with the GPX 6000 right around the corner... I’d sure want to know what it sells for before going with anything else. I’m hoping the AUS$8000 is not correct and that it ends up selling for less. If not, I’m pretty sure the Impulse Gold is going to fill the bill for me. If not either of those... there is the QED.

Congratulations, and thanks for being a member and participating!

Multi has a clear advantage on a saltwater beach. Typically more solid target id. That could be about it for this version. Just because you want a $424 detector to have cutting edge flagship performance that makes hunted out parks come alive does not mean it will happen. There are high performing single frequency and lower performing single frequency, at higher and lower prices. Same thing is going to happen now with multifrequency. Higher price, higher performing models, and lower price, lower performing models. Which do you want to bet this is?

Overall the tones on the MDT are the number one thing I would change if I could. I have high frequency hearing loss, and the exceptionally high tones chosen don’t work well for my ear. The lowest Tarsacci tone is like most detector medium tones, the medium is very high, and the high is almost supersonic. Pick the right headphones and it’s fine, but for me I’d lower the tones across the board to better match my hearing if I could. If White’s is at one end of the spectrum with the loud boombox sound, the MDT is at the other far extreme, with tones more reminiscent of a spoon tapping a glass. Anyway, if it is an issue try as many different headphones as you can. The differences can be quite dramatic.

I’ve heard of some people experiencing issues, but nobody seems to want to say anything publicly about it. So it goes on via email or PM. I don’t understand that myself. Are we concerned about hurting the engineers feelings by being honest? It is what it is... just spit it out. Not having had the machine in salt water, I’m as curious as anyone. In theory if you reduce the sensitivity or increase the pulse delay enough the machine will run stable under any conditions. Yet there is resistance to doing this due to fear of lost depth. Or because “machine xyz ran good set like that, this machine should also.” So are we talking machines that are unstable no matter what? A genuine issue that no amount of control setting can eliminate? Or are we talking insistence at running the machine hot, which leads to false signals? Which leads to circular discussions: ”My detector is making false signals” “Reduce this setting, or increase this setting, or both, until the machine settles down” “I would, but if I do I lose depth” ”Depth is no good if you are chasing false signals. Reduce this setting, or increase this setting, or both, until the machine settles down” “I did, but the machine lost depth, so I went back to the original settings. Now it’s making false signals again.” “Reduce this setting, or increase this setting, or both, until the machine settles down” “I would, but if I do I lose depth” “sigh” I swear I’ve had that discussion hundreds of times over the years.

Whether it’s frequency or whatever, the Vanquish modes are more than disc patterns. That’s the point I’m trying to make. I expect the MF Salt mode just acts to balance to both salt and mineral simultaneously... the big advantage of multifrequency over single frequency when it comes to beach detecting. This will in turn make it less sensitive to weak signals. The real question for me is not saltwater. The question is.... what, if any, advantage does Multi-Flex offer over single frequency on the Apex for other types of detecting? If you read all the Garrett info, they actually make no claims of consequence. ”Garrett’s Multi-Flex technology, fueled by a cutting edge, broad-bandwidth digital platform, simply gives you more versatility with the Apex than can be found on any detector in its price range! Choose from powerful single frequencies to enhance detection on specific targets*, or select one of Apex’s simultaneous multifrequency modes to achieve excellent detection on all targets in all soils. * Note: lower frequencies generally offer improved detection on larger and more conductive targets (i.e. large silver coins). Higher frequencies generally offer improved detection on smaller and less conductive targets (i.e., hammered silver coins, gold nuggets.” There are actually no claims of more depth, better discrimination... better anything really. The whole sales pitch is “versatility.” In fact they go out of their way on several occasions to point out single frequency can outperform the multifrequency option. Whereas Minelab went so far as to say Multi-IQ obsoletes single frequency. Hyperbole of course, but also an indication of the faith Minelab has in Multi-IQ. I’m not catching the same kind of vibe from Garrett on Multi-Flex and I’m therefore surmising that what they have is a “soft” multifrequency not unlike that done in many early machines like the CZ series or DFX/Beachhunter ID. Which in turn means no major benefit really outside of saltwater operation.

I did not say MF is intended only for the beach. Use it wherever you want. Your assumptions about how a first time effort at multifrequency installed in a low end device is going to shape up are different than mine. There is nothing magic about multifrequency per se.... just fire up my DFX if you want to see mild mannered multi at work. I'll stick with what I said, and lay money this in effect ends up being an Ace with a beach mode. And frankly, there is nothing wrong with that.

Not required. MF as employed in Vanquish already works on the beach. It would be more accurate to say it does not have a dedicated dry land only mode. Equinox has at least five Multi Modes: Park 1 / Field 1 Multi Park 2 / Field 2 Multi Beach 1 Multi Beach 2 Multi Gold Mode Multi plus 4, 5 ,10, 15, 20, and 40 kHz single frequency options Apex you have MF and MF Salt plus 5, 10, 15, and 20 kHz single frequency options All of which is kind of beside the point I was trying to make, which was not to decide who has the most modes. I'm pointing out the modes on Apex, for all they do, could be left entirely off of the detector and not affect it's performance. Both Equinox and Vanquish have built in performance factors in the search profiles that make them a different beast compared to the Apex modes. On Apex, they are simply placeholders for disc patterns, nothing more.

Ah, but you are assuming Garrett Multi-Flex will outperform single frequency.... and we don't know that yet. I'm betting just the opposite. I'm guessing that Multi-Flex is a solid but unremarkable first effort at multifrequency, and except for the beach, unlikely to make any serious waves in the metal detector world. The more I look at it, the more I think Garrett nailed it calling this an Ace. It really is just an Ace that offers a multifrequency mode for the salt beach. That's it. I honestly don't think there is anything more to see here. Plus, I happen to know Jeff you tend to use a VLF in places where a PI is called for!

Maybe not. Does Apex 20 kHz or MF silent search "no disc" mode match or exceed the 18 kHz threshold based all metal mode in the AT Gold? I'd not bet on it.