Chase Goldman

It already exists but this particular implementation appears to be a bust. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/airmetaldetectors/air-metal-detector-the-smart-bluetooth-metal-detec&ved=2ahUKEwjhtpjq_bD5AhV1EGIAHbU7CYkQtwJ6BAgLEAE&usg=AOvVaw3ATDoC6rtCDwbV6ti9DeY4

You will hear both the detector and the PP in your headset simultaneously. I like this full duplex setup because it means I can readily alternate between the pinpointer and the detector for determining whether the target is still in the hole without having to switch off the pinpointer. I use this setup with my GPX 4800, yes you need to keep the PP away from the coil but I don't have to do gynamstics or anything to keep the GPX from sounding off (11" stock Commander DD coil). I suspect that Axiom will emulate this behavior (full duplex) but have no idea how sensitive the Axiom will be to an energized pinpointer.

The Z Lynk wireless version of the Carrot was introduced 2 or 3 years ago FWIW. I've had one since 2020, IIRC. Guess the Axiom will give it some newfound attention if that wasn't the case for Apex.

Really.... Oh there's no doubt APTX-LL has a measurable delay of up to 40ms just as ALL of the proprietary wireless solutions bottom out at about 17ms, didn't think anyone was arguing that and it doesn't need to be "measured" to be proven. The issue is that we are all wired slightly differently and for some 40 ms is not an issue and for others 17 ms is just intolerable. For me personally, for detecting, I can comfortably deal with APTX-LL level delays but anything greater than that (even APTX or possibly even APTX Adaptive) and the delay is intolerable for me. IMO, it's not stubborness, but personal preference and the limits of what we can individually deal with IMO. The study would be interesting I suppose but it would probably just illustrate what we already know and that is humans can perceive latencies at about 15 ms (someone listening for the delay in their own spoken voice through headphones) but typically people can tolerate audio latencies of up to 150 to 200 ms. No one here is forcing anyone to deal with any specific wireless protocol other than the manufacturers who have made design decisions that limit end-user options for specific detector models. Here is an interesting Wikipedia article discussing audio delay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latency_(audio)#:~:text=In one study%2C listeners found,his or her own voice.

The 5000 gives you a fighting chance on those ferrous targets with its ferrous blanking circuit. We'll see how tge Axiom ferrous check feature fares soon enough.

Also need dealer clarification on the 10%/15% Garret military discount. Gerry has been saying 10% lately, but he posted the Garrett notification to dealers stating it was 15% back in May. Would like to know because that's $200 additional bucks in play for some folks considering AXIOM at MAP.

Dave, So keeping the bone phones plugged in is not draining power shut down? That was a good thought even if it turned out to be a red herring.

That's ironic Andy because my go to wireless setup on my GPX 4800 is Z Lynk and an MS3. Just needed to make sure the muff with the antenna was pointing towards the Z Lynk transmitter and srop outs disappeared and audio has been great. But I have heard other complaints ts as well when married to the GPX. Yeah, unfortunately, APTX LL will eventually fade away as it is no longer being supported. As soon as Qualcomm decides to stop manufacturing the chipset, there will be some issues. Probably still a few years off. I complained about this in another thread, but manufactures who have gone all in on APTX-LL on their latest detectors should have future proofed themselves on the GPX 6000 and Nokta Legend by including dual radios utilizing their proprietary wireless audio solutions (WiMax and Nokta "Green") as backups just as was done on the Nox. Personally, I'm OK with Z Lynk. BT would have been nice but not as a the sole wireless option based on APTX-LL's sunsetting.

Saw that. Ugh.

Detector Electronics Corp. 23 Turnpike Road Southboro, MA 01772 508-460-6244

Gary, Thanks. Yep, I suggested that right off in my first post. He said he had already tried that (reject is the default, I believe). That's when I started grasping at straws for him. 😆

Dave, Let us know what eventually worked for you, if anything. Hugh

Oh, I thought Tony was talking about the Fisher engineers, not the detector. Hey, just trying to lighten up the angst in the room a little... (BTW - Just kidding Carl! Learned so much from your posts, site, and book. I am embarrassed you had to teach me transformer theory and Faraday's Law all over again just to get me the right mental model on how detectors work - but that's what happens when you stop doing engineering and instead manage programs and people).

Dave, I hear you on the double whammy Depth Loss with low sensitivity and high black sand. While there isn't a one-to-one correspondence between the Deus 2 and Nox on the sensitivity scales which we both know are not linear, presuming they were linear, a 21 - 22 sensitivity setting on Nox (25 max setting) would correspond to about 82 to 85 on the Deus 2 (99 max setting). FWIW. But you are in the best position to judge whether a sens setting like that makes the depth penalty untenable.

Good luck to you. Hopefully that will be the extent of your coil stem assembly hardware issues and as Steve said, a Garrett Dealer should set you right up. If your ATX is outfitted with the newer closed coils, I beleive you should be able to use a standard Garrett replacement bolt assembly kit, about 6 bucks or so. Just be aware, down the road, at some point the retractable stem cam assembly may fail over time, especially if you don't periodically disassemble it to clean it (mainly an issue for salt water submergence but dirt gets in there too as you repeatedly extend and retract the shaft for use. Garrett sells a cam repair kit and spanner tool at ~ $30 for this purpose but Steve describes here how you can improvise a DIY tool (you'll still need the replacement parts kit) and do the replacement or disassembly for periodic cleaning to keep the internal cam and bushings from wearing out. Yes this beast is rugged and performs well at the task at hand but also requires some purposeful care and feeding. Yeah, there's a reason for people willing to pay for what the Axiom is bringing to the table in terms of weight, simplicity, and ergonomics compared to the ATX with equivalent or better performance. If for nothing else, when you factor in the reconstructive surgery costs for your swing shoulder, things kind of even out. I will say this, Garrett customer service is top notch and will fully support ATX warranty and after warranty repairs and parts replacements including getting things shipped out ASAP.

Dave, you haven't given us your baseline program settings so these suggestions are now just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. I haven't encountered true black sand yet in 50 or so beach swing hours. Most of these like the salt sensitivity suggestion previously go to salt chatter, but hey, you never know. First of all, don't be afraid to go lower than 90 on sensitivity, if necessary. 90 - 93 is like the sweet spot for ops, so if you haven't lowered it below that then you really aren't attacking stability. Obviously if you press down to 80 you'll want to see how much depth you lose. I think you start falling off the depth curve rapidly in the low 80's and below. But again this goes more to salt stability than black sand. Tried GB in tracking? Using beach sensitive or beach? Have you tried Dive mode? I believe that lowers transmit power (not sure, I know it is less sensitive to micro targets at a top end of 14 khz) so might help with the headlights in the fog analogy. Where do you have disk set? Do you have iron volume on or off? Pitch or multi tones? Tried notching the TIDs associated with the black sand chatter? Increase reactivity to 2 or above. See if applying the silencer filter has any beneficial impact. Lower Audio Response.

Did you lower salt sensitivity before lowering sensitivity? I presume you left magnetic reject enabled (default).

It's more filling the 4500/5000 void created when ML decided to go full auto with the 6000 and didn't bother updating the form factor/ergonomics for those older form factor dinosaurs. With manual settings and decent iron blanking, those machines can still do certain things (at least for relic and treasure hunters) better than the 6000, not to mention that they have more coil options and they're cheaper. So Garrett threaded the needle there quite nicely with more versatility than the 6000 offers and probably plenty of 4.5/5K umph. I thought immediately of you hardNox when the Axiom reveal was complete.

Hey, I still have the Deus 2 But yeah, the GPX won't likely go until Axiom proves itself to me in the hot stuff. The ATX, however, hasn't really served as a backup for some time and should have put it up a couple of years ago.

It will no doubt handle the hot stuff. Already in line so I can give it a go in Culpeper this fall. You will likely see an ATX and 4800 on the classifieds soon.

Gawd, I hope it's not $6.8K (4×Gold Spot)...but I guess that would be an upper bound as that nugget isn't necessarily pure. I'm thinking 3K to 4K with the 2 coils max. We'll know soon enough. Jen you should start a price guess pool.

Hey, just let us enjoy our "hoopla" for awhile...we'll do the reality check later...

Guess I called it. Just didn't have the name - Axiom. I like what they showed. Can't wait to hear about performance from independent 3rd parties, don't trust that Steve H guy . Guessing we're talking $2 to 3K (including the dual coil packages).

Agree. It is unlikely. The real problem is not just the demise of APTX-LL but that ML and Nokta (apologies for bringing Nokta into a ML thread, but it's relevant) went all-in on APTX-LL with the GPX 6000 and Legend without providing their proprietary wireless hardware radio systems (Wi-Max for ML and "Green" wireless for Nokta) as built-in backups for their two newest detectors. Doh! Poor decisional foresight in both cases (Equinox supports Wi-Max and BT-LL) and now Nokta has to provide a new wireless pinpointer with a dead-end BT technology (APTX-LL) for compatibility with Legend. Hope they at least retain Nokta "Green" wireless compatibility on the new wireless PP and consider forward fitting their proprietary wireless radios into a future variant of Legend. However, regardless of APTX-LL's demise, there is still plenty of quality, legacy APTX-LL hardware out there (see this thread) like Avantree Torus and other excellent Avantree offerings, Creative has some great APTX-LL phones, and some others that should provide several years of reliable service until the next generation of wireless detectors hit the streets with the APTX Adaptive or whatever comes down the pike at that point.

As a hot dirt relic/treasure hunter where the PI rules over any VLF (except in thick iron), I felt ML abandoned us with the GPX 6000. If ML would have basically delivered a GPX 4500/5000 stuffed into the GPX 6000 form factor with wireless audio (while eliminating some of the arcane GPX 4.5/5K user adjustments that really never get touched but not going full auto like the GPX 6000) with the same GPX 5K timing options and ferrous blanking circuit, EMI performance, and compatibility with GPX coils and I would have been a happy camper (I might even have been able to stomach the GPX 6000 asking price, but would have been hopeful they could have lowered it a couple K). But instead, I would gladly take an ATX in an APEX-like package (but weatherproofed) with the ATX controls/features (including ferrous grunt but would really like the ML GPX ferrous blanking circuit) intact but translated to a decent UI, use of a powerful but light LiPolymer stack that can deliver the required V-A needed for the PI pulse and a variety of DD solid coils (and monos for the gold prospectors) in the 11 to 14" range. I like the GPX threshold and GPX target tone instead of the ATX doorbell bing/bong bong/bing but I could live with that if need be. Just really need it to be light and wireless compatible with decent EMI immunity. Curious if any TDI DNA ends up in this new Garrett if it does turn out to be a PI. But would rather Garrett lean toward the ATX vs. the TDI.