☠ Cipher

This is one of the things that won me over to start experimenting with earlier Whites models. I had never seen such stable and reliable target IDs before until someone brought an M6 over. It was as sure of itself anything.

I would agree with that too if we were to add the important caveat “not always.” My only point is it seems not a good reason not to also have a multifrequency option. I would hold the equinox up as a better example than vanquish for reactivity, and as an example of how you can have your cake and eat it too, but I think if reactivity is the most important factor for you, Deus is still the gold standard. This seems to also be true even when we are talking about dedicated single frequency units. But then, equinox out paces most of them too, which shows that you can walk and chew gum at the same time. I’m not convinced that an all in one like equinox couldn’t be created that could do as well as Deus in a single frequency mode. Maybe Nokta Makro will pull an upset and be the ones to do it first. It’s pretty close even now. We are talking almost splitting hairs at this stage, so I think it can be done, and I think you can have it all as things evolve.

For me it’s still the Whites V3i, but it’s a tough one because I love my CTX and Equinox too. V3i and CTX remain the two best discriminators in my view and I have a lot of fun with their disc patterns and trying to cherry pick. I don’t mind in the least that they are relatively heavy because they are good at what they do compared to the competition and the color screens are helpful, particularly on the V3i. It wouldn’t be what it is without it. As things are at the moment I haven’t had the V3i out much this year until I find a backup for parts or second model. Until something truly revolutionary happens to hobby detectors I want to be able to keep using it. Even then I’ll still hold onto it as a piece of metal detecting history with an interesting story behind it.

Those seem to do the job quite well. Looks like a good fit

I hesitated too long on it because of the camo and it sold. I probably should’ve snatched it up since it was a later model. When the time came I could’ve just switched guts from one to the other. My own unit has some age on it. It was purchased in 2010 and I’m thinking color LCDs don’t last as long as others, though I’m not sure where I got the idea. I worry about that and it’s ability to hold programs and settings in memory very much longer. Electronics are funny things though. Sometimes they go earlier than expected and sometimes they far outlast their predicted demise.

The top photo is what I think he’s referring to. These might have went to Centerville too. They were an alternative to the Velcro cable ties. The V machines are very popular in parts of Eastern Europe and they make some great 3D printed products for Whites machines. The second photo is a first attempt at that sort of cable holder, available on eBay

I agree that this product appears to be a disaster. I trust many of the users reporting these findings and I know they would not be saying it if they could say something nice. They had high hopes for it. The idea that the phone is taking on more of a role than it is or can appears to be is one more way they are taking people in and offering them false hope that this project can be turned around with an app update. They continue to oversell what the phone is doing in relation to the coil. There appears to be every bit as much going on in this coil as Deus, yet, about 1/3 the performance (being generous) and they have no plans to update it. Having the components they claim the coil is limited to, and paying careful attention to their language, they appear to be dishonestly hedging their way through the bad press to release this hot mess into an unsuspecting general public with no changes to performance or their outlined specs (for example promising anywhere from 12”-14” in ground depth on coin sized objects depending on whether you read the retail box or website, when in fact it is not even air testing beyond single digits) at $399.

That sounds like something else entirely. I’m sure it is what it sounds like, a big flashing red light.

Yes, and the older the design, and the more simple, the more likely a target. Take the fake CTX-3030s. Most of these are not actually 3030 clones, but 3030 housing with a G2+ guts. G2+ and T2 are a favorite target along with the older aces and Garrett style coils.

Good post overall, but this is an especially salient point. The clones and imitations are growing and thriving despite the vigilance. Until I really combed through YouTube and other places, I didn’t realize how much.

And it is paying off big time. I often wonder what other companies attribute this to, if not customer feedback/requests.

I could be wrong, but it seems that most metal detector personnel, if they pay attention to customers/potential customers at all these days, it is on social media fan pages. If you look at their social media, by and large they are not getting the feedback they would be here. They are getting posts that tell them how great they are, but few people if any pop up to offer criticism. When they do it is not very constructive. It is usually rude, belligerent, inarticulate and easily waved off as a disgruntled exception to the rule. Not only that, but the keepers of the gate will jump all over you on their behalf. Whites also went down this road. The idea that they were becoming an outdated brand was a forum perception that didn’t align with their social media feedback where a lot of people are of the opinion that if it doesn’t have a big battery pack under the arm it’s not powerful, and other misnomers.

While this is not an X-ray, it’s a look at what’s inside the new Air Metal Detectors coils. They claim that unlike the Deus the coil passive, doing nothing more than transmitting a Bluetooth signal to the phone where all the processing is done. What say you?

That’s not what I meant to imply. But I see how it was. We know it runs 4 single frequencies. We don’t know what it runs in multi, that’s correct. Could run 2 or it could run 4 for all we know. It just made me think of the V4 and it’s proposed ability to run 4 single or in multi and made me wonder if any part of it came from whites prior to public announcement. As you’ll recall the release of this machine came out of nowhere and surprised us all. If you look at my history I’ve also been very critical of Minelab for their marketing after it was uncovered that they don’t seem to be running what they are implying.

I’m sure they have some things in the works. I don’t think they were intentionally misleading, I just think marketing had been getting out in front of their skies. I’m sure that part of it is they want to release something that’s going to put them on top. They’ve said as much. That’s going to take some doing when your competition is the likes of such machines as Deus, Equinox etc. and who knows what Nokta is cooking up. I’m sure they have their eye on trying to accomplish something more revolutionary than evolutionary. Still, it would’ve been cool to see machines like the T-2, F75, F70, Liberator stuffed into waterproof housing and one upping machines like the AT Pro and Simplex in the meantime. The lack of responses hasn’t sat well with the forum communities. Any sign of life brings back some hope. Prior to the coil it was the F-Pulse/Tek-point. That was a big leap forward for that category though. They went from having a strange looking kind of toy pinpointer that maybe got a half inch range and wore its tips out in a month to a very well constructed beast of a pinpointer that’s as good or better than anything else out there, particularly now that TRX is out of the game. That’s probably the kind of leap they want to make in full sized flagship.

I’ve been looking in my free time today for you and haven’t found a workaround or alternate method other than the computer program described. It looks like all you can do is hope that Centerville gets it up and running. Do you have any contact with the previous owner? Memory is a funny thing. One day it might be out of reach, other days it comes right back to you.

If I’ve come across that way that’s not my intent. I’ve just tried to explain the mindset of a Whites loyalist, and I’ve explained that the impression they gleaned cannot be found upon closer inspection of the words. Garrett sells well because they make reliable product and market the heck out of it. But I don’t think many of us think they sit on top in hobby detectors technologically. Whites still had a place at that table in the minds of an awful lot of people, and will for a while even after their demise. Their problem, as we know, was bad management, a short leash in owner oversight, expensive manufacturing processes, and terrible marketing. The vast majority of complaints about Whites was worrying that they would fall further behind, not that they were as far behind as other American companies. The opposite seemed to be the case at Garrett. People worried that eventually their marketing would wear thin on competitively/ technologically mid-range product. The Apex served as a release valve for some of that concern, but is after all another mid-range release. My understanding is that First Texas was also interested in Whites, but couldn’t come to a deal. I say all this to say, I’m not sure everyone will see this as a rescue mission. Hard core whites guys will see it as cannibalization of a brand that before COVID convinced them they had some stellar product to look forward to in the future. They’ll see it that way if some form of legacy is not carried on.

It’s possible they could attempt something like this. Whites was going to make a V4 with 4 frequencies, which happens to be what Apex runs (makes you wonder if this merger began much earlier than we know). Minelab even toyed with the idea of using a spectrograph, and in fact has one locked away in a hidden menu on the FBS1 machines, but said it was too inconsistent for public use. I mightily disagree with that, and I’m sure every whites user does as well. I’ve found that when it comes to engineer opinions as to what the public should and shouldnt have, or will/won’t find useful, they tend not to know us better than we know ourselves if they don’t also detect. I digress, but I think it would be a wonderful idea and make a great platform to merge the Apex with the color spectrograph (and perhaps a higher frequency than 20, at least 30).

I would say that it’s highly, highly unlikely since even Whites was running out of parts to sustain production much longer, for example the screen and processor. It would certainly be awesome if they could find a workaround for this issue, but it sounds pretty hopeless. Centerville Electronics, who’ve taken over repairs of Whites product was told Garrett doesn’t plan on producing any of Whites machines (save for the 24K). They’ve been asked directly about bringing back certain machines. Their reply was that while they appreciate that many of us are loyal to Whites machines, keep our eyes on Garrett’s future releases…. I have mixed feelings about this. For one, Whites machines might be more expensive to produce than it might be worth to Garrett. My feeling is, why did they even bother to buy the brand then. Many of us had the impression it was to keep the Whites name alive as a parallel brand. Apparently not though. There’s some Whites product I feel is objectively more capable than their leading products, like the Bullseye TRX and MX Sport/MX7. I don’t feel Im putting Garrett down by saying that, since they now own it. There’s some product that fit somewhere in the middle and might sell well like the TDI. They might feel differently or that it would create issues they’d rather avoid. I can say with near certainty that buying up Whites only to put the brand to bed will have the opposite effect on many White’s guys they hoped for, which was to inherit the customer base. I’ll continue to buy whatever I think works best, but I know there are a lot of guys who feel the way I’ve described. It’ll drive them away because it won’t be seen to have been done with “good” intentions, or for what they had initially expected. They’ll feel duped. A careful reading of Whites parting words, and Garrett’s acquisition, does not say what it might’ve sounded like on its face though.

It was probably a couple years ago when I was interesting in testing, I got an email from marketing saying there was a big release imminent, followed by others. Never materialized. Even if true, it’s likely to neglect features we’re coming to expect like at home updates, wireless audio, pinpointer integration and so on. In the long run, if the base machine is a game changer in any way none of that will matter to me, but it may to others. I always want the best performing machines in any category, whether it has other limitations or lacks peripheral features won’t hold me back any.

I can keep a secret. How do I get Top Secret Clearance 😁? Any other machine, and I probably wouldn’t give it much of a thought, but my V3i is the centerpiece of my collection. Now that Whites is gone I’m treating it more like you would a classic car in some respects. Its fun to try to find a way in, but it kills me that it has functions I may never know about.

There are more hidden menus with hidden settings besides the factory reset and calibration. It’s a big mystery as to what they contain and how to access them. I’ve played around with some button combinations and long presses etc., but haven’t stumbled into it so far. At that time I had 3 units. Now I’m down to one and less keen on wearing out buttons or potentially getting it into the weeds. I’m looking for a spare though, especially now that Whites is out, and I’ll get back to experimenting. It’s funny to think that with all the unprecedented access to parameters whites gave us in the V3, there’s even more locked away in hidden menus. Of course, I think every machine has something like this, meant just for engineers and those servicing the units. Even the Minelab FBS machines had a hidden spectrograph. We know how to access that though I believe. It just sounded to my ear like there might have been some additional functionality that could be accessed with the V3.

Just as a follow up to the hidden menus, are we still keeping this a secret even though Whites is no longer in business and the V machines are in all likelihood out of production forever? (Worth a shot 😉)

As someone who is constantly watching the resale market, It seemed to me that even when the Safari was in production people either opted to buy a used Explorer or an Etrac. I think this is because safari lacked Fe:Co. It seemed to be a stripped down Explorer/E-trac. Most reviews I’ve seen from those who did buy one were favorable, particularly in stable target ID. The resale value continues to go down though. It used to be easy to get $500-$600 for one. Now, not so much.

One thing that has always impressed me, and which seems to be an indicator of just how complex SMF is, is the fact that to my knowledge and last I looked there’s not a single SMF DIY circuit in the wild. This tells me it’s not something just anyone can do. It takes a special kind of talent. One of the things that makes Minelab so effective at making these platforms is It’s their baby and they believe in it. They believe in it to such an extent that it’s becoming their entire VLF product line. Years ago when Garrett was dragging its feet on SMF and even recently from NM we’ve heard that SMF is not always the best solution and similar ways of minimizing the technology. If they don’t believe in it the way Minelab does, will they ensure they put everything they have into it? Idk. Reaction to the Apex seems to me to be lukewarm and not just because it’s not waterproof. It just seems like an “also ran” type of effort just to put something out there, and not something they really believed was better than current inventory. I think people are hoping for something better than Apex from NM. I just wonder if that’s possible right now, or if we will keep seeing more delays. These delays may not be like the relatively short delays of the past. Look how long this issue has had First Texas stumped and they have guys that have done this before and believe in it. Dave Johnson once thought it would completely overtake single frequency. We know Carl is enthusiastic about it. SMF is a whole different ball game. So much more can go wrong and so much more can be unforeseen, particularly if you’re not convinced you believe in it. I’m rooting for them though.