Nox Speed And Separation

[kac]

For separation no matter what machine the narrower the cross over between the Tx and Rx will give you better separation. Depth is gained from the total width of the coil and coverage by the length. This is pretty much true with all vlf machines with a dd coil.

So to say that id's are changing then you have what seems to be a signal contamination where 2 different metals are creating a new signal or different id and depending on the bias of the machine ie how it favors low conductors vs high conductors (in case of the nox I believe that is done by the base settings ie prospect mode favors small low conductors, park mode less).

As a quickie example if i take my Tejon and set it so the tone breaks on a square nail and put a dime far away I will lose the dime around 8-9" as the Tejon favors lower conductors. If I move that dime next to the nail I can hear the dime much further away as the conductivity of the 2 are mixed and the dime is now a lower conductor. This is when contamination can be good.

Toss a horse shoe or ox shoe in the mix and you lose it all then trimming out the iron. A narrower and smaller dd coil can give you better vid when there is many close trash around. I tend to hit a target from different directions and if I lose the target in one direction or get a big spike then there is a good chance there is more than one targets and good or bad I just dig it.

I can't speak on the CTX directly but have seen people do incredibly well with it and on par with others that know their Nox's well in the same area. Knowing the machine is a must as with any machine or brand. They all pretty much do the same thing and knowing it's capabilities and having the right coil for the job works best.

I see too many nail board test and all sorts of staged testing that in the real world mean nothing. I think there are too many real world variables to come up with some pattern of trash to find a treasure.

Not sure if any of this helps or not.

[JohnnyRox]

If I'm not mistaken, the CTX can track and display 2 separate targets.  I think the CTX has a processing advantage over the Nox. 

[GB_Amateur]

16 hours ago, kac said:

I see too many nail board test and all sorts of staged testing that in the real world mean nothing.

Sounds like a bit of an exaggeration.  ?  Every test means something, but interpreting/deciphering the meaning can be difficult to impossible.  I also prefer real-world tests, but even those are vulnerable to conditions and thus susceptible to misinterpretation.  IMO, everyone should have some kind of test setup as known conditions can help figure out what the detector is trying to say in the wild.

There's a reason gold detectorists take test pieces into the field and tune to those.  I think some relic hunters do the same.

 

[kac]

Majority of nail board tests use modern nails and not the old iron. I can't remember the last time I dug a modern nail. Maybe in some areas modern nails are more prevalent but not here in my neck of the woods.

I can see why there is a need to create some sort of baseline for testing like an air test gives best case scenario and quick idea on VDI #'s and ok to test between machines and coil combinations.

Test gardens would be the better way but only relevant to machines tested in that area and not necessarily applicable to everyone. At best they seem to be a guestimate. Just too many variables to account for.

[Chase Goldman]

On 4/7/2020 at 1:48 PM, sube said:

Trying to get some answers for over a year on why I need speed for separation I figured a tech savy group her could lead to some answers.

Simple 1 minute test pull-tab with dime 3 inches away on left side and a dime 3 inches away right side of pull-tab same plane .At 2 inches nox and ctx hit with proper id .Now raise the coil 5 inches no separation nox will only id as tab 13 or 14 ctx same however ctx will id correct to 10 inches using side of coil nox no coil size did not matter .

Replace tab with nail nox does better will id to depth but with id of 12 13 14 or 15 16 and 17 the ctx will give proper id as deep as it well go .

What I think is happening is as the coil is raised the field becomes larger thereby encircling all the targets no separation now we have a blended signal .

I get the speed thing where the audio is shorten letting you hear the targets separately instead of bunch up but all you have to do is slow your coil sweep to hear the targets . (WHERE"S THE SEPARATION)

That 1 tab on the same plane kills the separation of the nox dead in it's tracks what about a 3d target situation can only imagine .

Fairgrounds are the worst place you can run a detector nails big iron cans pull-tabs foil can slaw and every piece of junk know en to man.

So I need id the ctx is far better than the nox getting back to the dimes and pull-tab at 10 inches with the nox the dimes have to be 6 inches away from the tab to get good readings of a proper id (WHERE"S THE SEPARATION THEY TALK ABOUT) wondering if the deus fairs any better .

I seen all the guys whipping targets as fast as they can and say man that has separation yeah at 2 inches what about where the coins are good ones 6 to 12 now I could care less about separation at 2 inches i'm not looking for clad . All the test I have seen 2d 3d and on have been done close to the targets what about 5 inches I think they all would fail . sube

Sounds like you simply don't understand the concepts of recovery speed  (which facilitates detection of separate closely spaced targets because the detector can reset quickly as it detects target after target as they come into the coil's active region during a swing -detectors with slower recovery speeds, like the CTX, need the targets to be more widely separated to individually detect them than detectors with faster recovery speeds, like the equinox) and proper coil control (e.g., wiggle) that allows you to lock onto single targets within a group of closely spaced targets (like Tom was saying above)..  Swinging slower doesn't help if your swing encompasses all the targets and the effect is worsened if your detector has slow recovery speed.  Suggest you do a forum search on the the term "recovery speed".  Good Luck.

2 hours ago, kac said:

Majority of nail board tests use modern nails and not the old iron. I can't remember the last time I dug a modern nail. Maybe in some areas modern nails are more prevalent but not here in my neck of the woods.

I can see why there is a need to create some sort of baseline for testing like an air test gives best case scenario and quick idea on VDI #'s and ok to test between machines and coil combinations.

Test gardens would be the better way but only relevant to machines tested in that area and not necessarily applicable to everyone. At best they seem to be a guestimate. Just too many variables to account for.

i have to agree with you on the nail board tests.  My main problem with them is that they are 2-D, everything lying in the same plane.  That is not how detecting works in the real world.  Tests are good to make very rough relative comparisons, but the best test platform is the field, digging everything until you really know what your detector's language is telling you and then getting selective from there, if you want or need (due to time limitations or because you can't tear up the site) to play the odds.

[kac]

Iron can mask out targets especially when nails are above the target. That doesn't necessarily make the machine obsolete or useless by any means as you do need to know your machine and it's abilities no matter what brand or model.

The CTX is a very high end full featured machine and I am pretty sure with the right settings it would perform pretty much the same as any of the Nox presets with similar coils. Downside I see with the CTX is the learning curve can be daunting and mastering a machine like that takes some serious dedication. I myself is pretty savvy but am intimidated by that machine.

[sube]

4 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

Sounds like you simply don't understand the concepts of recovery speed  (which facilitates detection of separate closely spaced targets because the detector can reset quickly as it detects target after target as they come into the coil's active region during a swing -detectors with slower recovery speeds, like the CTX, need the targets to be more widely separated to individually detect them than detectors with faster recovery speeds, like the equinox) and proper coil control (e.g., wiggle) that allows you to lock onto single targets within a group of closely spaced targets (like Tom was saying above)..  Swinging slower doesn't help if your swing encompasses all the targets and the effect is worsened if your detector has slow recovery speed.  Suggest you do a forum search on the the term "recovery speed".  Good Luck.

i have to agree with you on the nail board tests.  My main problem with them is that they are 2-D, everything lying in the same plane.  That is not how detecting works in the real world.  Tests are good to make very rough relative comparisons, but the best test platform is the field, digging everything until you really know what your detector's language is telling you and then getting selective from there, if you want or need (due to time limitations or because you can't tear up the site) to play the odds.

Chase thanks for your reply a little about myself I have detected for 50 years  have used minelabs for over 20 years  I only hunt thrash with a 6 inch coil (Sounds like you simply don't understand the concepts of recovery speed  (which facilitates detection of separate closely spaced  targets)

( the CTX, need the targets to be more widely separated to individually detect them than detectors with faster recovery speeds, like the equinox) (wrong) it's coil speed

separate closely spaced  targets) Like a dime 3 inches left of tab(SQUARE TAB OFF TODAYS SODA CAN) and a dime 3 inches right of tab . Ctx clearly separates the targets at 2 to 5 inches same as nox after 5 inches they both fail even running the nox at recovery 8 speed did not matter they both fail .If you spend one minute and do the test you will see forget about the CTX were talking about the nox It was sold as a separater because of the speed do the test then ask yourself why does it not separate passed 5 inches .

As far as the minelab wiggle it won't do you a bit of good if you never hear the dimes and are only hearing the pull-tab nothing to wiggly on .As far as sweep speed fast or slow no dime signal . Do this simple 2d test and see for yourself the ? was why do I get id and separation from 2 to 5 inches and no separation from 5 inches and deeper . sube

 

[Tometusns]

Sube,

   I think we should get a bunch of different detectors and do the test. I'm thinking we may find it's just the nature of the beast. But I think I understand the question now and you were hoping one of the guys on here could explain why that happens. 

 I'm sorry I can't help with a real scientific explanation but I see what you're asking.

  Perhaps someone with more knowledge about the field will have some insight.

                                                 HH! Tom

[Jeff McClendon]

Did anybody read my post???? I know I am not an expert but I actually tried to answer Sube's question. 

I am trying to learn as much or more than offer advice. Any comments would be very welcome. Educate me please.....

Jeff