A Few Observations On The Manticore, After About 50 Hours (and A Few Recent Nice Finds)...

[Jeff McClendon]

8 hours ago, phrunt said:

me too ?

And me.....

[Chesroy]

3 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

They read. They never, NEVER respond on social media. You got their response which is that they are acknowledging the requests. They will either take action or not. In my experience Minelab considers the update function a way to issue bug fixes, not a way to add missing features. That would normally happen in a new model, say a Manticore Pro, or a CTX 4040. But if they did decide to issue it as an update to Manticore, they sure won’t say anything about that until it actually happens. It’s not as trivial to do as you might think, and a promise just sets them up for constant complaints of “why has it not happened yet.” They won’t tell you when the coils will release so why would they tell you this? With Minelab it’s believe it when you see it. Like it or hate it, it’s the way they roll.

Yep appreciate that Steve just poking as much as I can !

[fishersari]

On 8/5/2023 at 9:11 PM, Steve Herschbach said:

. In my experience Minelab considers the update function a way to issue bug fixes, not a way to add missing features

I hope Minelab makes an exception for the Manticore. Its a usd 1500 detector and as @Yatahaze323pointed out a usd 250 detector has one. I feel the mineralization's meter will be very helpful tools to determine quick initial/rough setting to get the maximum performance, but then again what do I know.. lol.

Yesterday I'm on a site of which within 25m radius I get 3 different GB reading of 2, 10 and 42. I don't know what kind of mineralization's are but I do test at 1 spot I can only detect 7' deep and the other 2 spot around 10' to 14' by using AT General. The site were in palm oil plantation near a river with clay soil. At all these spot the deep targets cant be detected using below 21 sensitivity.

This coin in particular were found at 10' ish, The lowest setting it can detect ( with no ID, no trace just very faint whisper sound ) is sensitivity 22 with recovery of 4, using recovery of 6 the target disappear. The 'ok' setting that still has the Manticore tonal language is sensitivity of 24 with recovery speed of 4. The good  the basic 'dig me' tonal setting for me  is sensitivity 27 with recovery speed of 5. I'm for one is happy with the Manticore 35 sensitivity range is available to me. It is very helpful to check very deep targets. 

It is a tin coin leaching for 300 years in the ground. I didn't use any other modes to check. 

[Steve Herschbach]

Ultimately I e always found a mineralization meter redundant to how I tune. I start with powerful settings that back down until the machine settles enough to satisfy me. Where that will end up being depends on the mineralization. I can get way with more aggressive setting in low mineral environments, and have to back off in tougher ground. They way the machine reacts “talks to me” and tells me what to do. The machines I’ve had that had the meter I eventually never paid much attention to it.

What I far more prefer is good overload function that tells you the machine is set too high for the ground. My 24K will complain loudly if I set the sensitivity to high. Back it down one step, I’m set. Can’t get more dummy proof than that. 

There hav been detectors that go into “silent overload” and appear to be working when in fact they have pretty much shut down. Bad news for those unaware of it. But unlikely for people that don’t hunt the really bad ground.

[Yatahaze323]

For me having a mineralization meter wouldn't just be about ground balance, I would use it as another tool in determining if I should dig a signal. 

Right now with the manticore if I hit a coin size object and it IDs as iron shows up in the iron area's of the target trace I'm not going to dig it.  However if I know how mineralized the ground is then that would help determine if some iron signals should be investigated, maybe some deeper non ferrous items are getting ID as iron because of higher mineralization.

34 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Ultimately I e always found a mineralization meter redundant to how I tune. I start with powerful settings that back down until the machine settles enough to satisfy me. Where that will end up being depends on the mineralization. I can get way with more aggressive setting in low mineral environments, and have to back off in tougher ground. They way the machine reacts “talks to me” and tells me what to do. The machines I’ve had that had the meter I eventually never paid much attention to it.

What I far more prefer is good overload function that tells you the machine is set too high for the ground. My 24K will complain loudly if I set the sensitivity to high. Back it down one step, I’m set. Can’t get more dummy proof than that. 

There hav been detectors that go into “silent overload” and appear to be working when in fact they have pretty much shut down. Bad news for those unaware of it. But unlikely for people that don’t hunt the really bad ground.

 

[Steve Herschbach]

2 hours ago, Yatahaze323 said:

However if I know how mineralized the ground is then that would help determine if some iron signals should be investigated, maybe some deeper non ferrous items are getting ID as iron because of higher mineralization.

I was not talking about ground balance specifically, though that’s part of the puzzle. Like I said, you should be able to determine how mineralized the ground is simply by how the detector behaves over the ground. A mineralization meter is redundant for me, not telling me anything I don’t already know. But hey whatever makes people happy, and if having a mineralization meter makes people happy, I’m all for it. ??

[GB_Amateur]

I've wondered about the idea that a combination of ground balance and ground mineralization (two kinds, ferrous and saline) are all that there is.  Why should it be?  Most of what we 'know' in life in general is a simplification.  Think of it as a dumbing down so we can understand the complexities of nature.

In other interests of my life I've found that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".  Another way to look at this is we often have to unlearn what we know in order to make progress.  There has been much discussion recently that the knowledge we've gained with the Equinox can be detrimental to our learning of the Manticore.  This seems counterintuitive but then I recall reading (probably from Steve H. posts ) that the knowledge one carries over from an IB/VLF to a PI can be counterproductive.  Does that apply even from one IB/VLF to another??

[steveg]

abenson,

Finally had the time to watch your "comparison" video between the original version, and the update, over the three targets.  Nicely done.  Very informative.

Steve

[RSmith]

The reason I am wanting the mineralization meter is not for ground balance— the machine tells you when it is off. 
It is the recovery speed that in my experience is hugely affected by different types of ground. —BUT —- the trouble is (at least for me) there is no indication that you are not hearing the good signals as being good, but rather just a bad sounding trash type sound. HOW EVER— if you change the recovery speed up or down 2 or 3 clicks these targets scream at you as great targets. 

The differences in mineralization from place to place is a silent killer of signals
For me this is the big hurdle I MUST learn to overcome.
RSmith

[Chase Goldman]

16 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

I've wondered about the idea that a combination of ground balance and ground mineralization (two kinds, ferrous and saline) are all that there is.  Why should it be?  Most of what we 'know' in life in general is a simplification.  Think of it as a dumbing down so we can understand the complexities of nature.

In other interests of my life I've found that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".  Another way to look at this is we often have to unlearn what we know in order to make progress.  There has been much discussion recently that the knowledge we've gained with the Equinox can be detrimental to our learning of the Manticore.  This seems counterintuitive but then I recall reading (probably from Steve H. posts ) that the knowledge one carries over from an IB/VLF to a PI can be counterproductive.  Does that apply even from one IB/VLF to another??

Short Answer, Chuck: Yes it does apply from one VLF to another and I would add from one detecting objective or environment to another.  It can be counterproductive if you blindly apply “knowledge” gained from one VLF detector to another VLF detector without thinking about the inherent differences in the way features are implemented between VLF detectors or their different behaviors, strengths, and weaknesses.  Similarly, it can be counterproductive to have the mindset that one’s approach and knowledge gained by specializing in one type of detecting (e.g., relic hunting) would translate wholesale and directly to beach detecting or gold prospecting.  Relatively mundane techniques such as the methods and tools used to recover targets varies greatly.  If you don’t know how to use a heavy duty water scoop in heavy surf you will have little success even if you have nailed the detector language telling you there is a gold ring under your coil.

The Nox to Manticore sensitivity and recovery settings “disconnect” is now becoming more obvious, but it definitely existed with Deus and Deus 2.  A lot of Deus “unlearning” was required for me to truly unlock Deus 2.  Furthermore, the way you use a single detector model varies greatly depending on your detecting objective and environmental conditions.  As an example, one may be a wizard with the Nox at beach detecting or coin shooting but may struggle mightily relic detecting in hot ground or gold prospecting with the Nox because even though the Nox is capable of tackling all those things the setups and techniques used are completely different, such that if you solely use your beach or coin shooting knowledge and fail to recognize that the environmental or target type differences require a completely different setup or technique, the Nox will “appear” to you to be ill suited to the task, when it is your “old” or non-applicable experience and knowledge holding you back.

Individual “common” features such as ground balance, noise cancel, sensitivity, discrimination, tones, recovery speed adjustments, frequencies, pinpointing, and “modes” behave very differently with respect to these parameters from one VLF to another, even within the same brand or even model family, and sometimes, in the case of Deus 2 and Manticore, within the same detector, itself.  On Deus 2 there are basically three groups of modes which behave differently from the others.  The terrestrial “discrimination” modes (General, Sensitive, High Conductor, and Mono) are pretty different from the three Beach/Dive discrimination modes, and the “non-discrimination” Gold Field and Relic modes are vastly different from either of the other two “discrimination mode” groups in terms of behavior, tone, and available settings.

Even the notion of “All Metal” varies from one detector to another.  In one case it can mean simply removing all discrimination, in another it is the true raw unprocessed IB signal (motion or non-motion), in another it is a specialized mode that processes signals different than the “discrimination” modes (Deus and Deus 2), and in others it disc and all metal (or motion and no motion) can be implemented simultaneously (e.g., Tarsacci) to simultaneously provide mixed audio to the detectorist.

I tend to learn each detector’s language, quirks, features, and weaknesses individually, uniquely but I don’t consider this “diversity” in detector-to-detector behavior a hindrance, but rather it is the essence of what I mean when I say one detector “compliments” another.  To this point, my experience with a Deus detector that had multiple frequency settings multiple reactivity/recovery settings, and multple search modes made Nox less intimidating to me, so in that sense the prior knowledge and experience using a versatile "Swiss Army knife"  type of detector was helpful in getting a running start with the Nox, but the Nox also had its own language, which I had to force myself tl learn and avoid the temptation to revert back to my comfort zone with the Deus.  So, of course there is a certain degree of knowledge and technique “crossover”, but if I have really learned a detector well, then my brain and muscle memory actually take over to switch my “operator’s mode” over consistent with the detector I am swinging.  My detector setup, settings and techniques differ depending on which detector I’m using even if my detecting objectives haven’t changed because the detectors themselves have different behaviors and different strengths and weaknesses.  Even when using a single detector, I often “interrogate” iffy targets by hitting them with different modes or even different setups of the same mode (by varying a single or multiple parameters such as frequency, recovery, disc, or tone).  

This used to be accomplished in a less straight forward manner by hitting a site with two or more detectors that operated at different frequencies or that had different recovery speeds or discrimination behaviors.  When switchable single frequency, simultaneous multifrequency (SMF) , and finally the Nox with its combination of multiple SMF modes and multiple switchable single frequencies came along, you now could hit a site just a few times with the same detector but with different mode setups and accomplish that same feat that you accomplished with multiple detectors and multiple passes through a site.

Bottom line is that there are general experiences and knowledge and basic setups and techniques that you can carry over from one detector to the next or one detecting objective or environment to the next, but there is also a greater amount of specialization and “unlearning” required, as well (which I refer to collectively as “evolving”).  Especially as the detectors themselves evolve into more capable, versatile, and complex machines.