XP Deus 2 With 9" Coil Vs Manticore With M8 Coil

[Chase Goldman]

1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Would not the Manticore be better in those locations than the D2 if the D2 is indeed more prone to falsing on bottle caps?

Regarding D2 ferrous falsing, Bottle caps, specifically, completely disappear for me on the D2 with the BC filter engaged with little to no downside.  You get a blip to know they're there so you're not oblivious to them but can feel free to move on. 

BC, like D2's Silencer, is just another iron bias type filter.  So that's two iron bias filters you can manipulate to potentially knock out multi-alloy ferrous falsing on things like flat tin but TBH I don't have a lot of data to confirm that BC and/or Silencer would be as effective as it is on bottlecaps . 

Relic program on D2 uses a third, separate type of bias filter called IAR which does a good job of knocking falsing iron back into the ferrous bin while still allowing the non-ferrous to pop.  However the D2 Relic/Goldfield programs don't use traditional Disc so don't have access to the Silencer and BC bias filters.  That's where technique comes into play - With the D2 custom program slots and quick navigation from program to program, I can quickly hit a target with two or three different setups (programs with different ferrous filter settings) to quickly filter out a false and move on.  Ferrous falsing has other tells on the D2.  In my experience, the most prominent tell is widely varying TID (especially when you turn on the target) because non-ferrous targets, even those co-located with iron, are pretty stable.  I think the biggest D2 falsing weakness is deep large iron, especially large flat iron.  

Relic/Goldfield appear to be the more "transparent" programs as they are pseudo All Metal, so I search with them in thick iron, and interrogate with "discrimination" Base programs such as General or Sensitive with different tone setups (pitch or full tones) and the bias filters I previously mentioned. To either suppress or coax falsing/distortion to unmask ferrous.

Manticore has ferrous limits which is just a different way to slay the same cat using a form of iron bias and appears to also work very well.  I am still learning how to use the user programmable hot keys to set up something similar to target interrogation with Manticore to what I have natively with D2.  It shows promise.  But frankly, all I am doing is getting Manticore to sort of emulate the D2 and not expecting it to surpass the D2.  I'm just using its differences to perhaps make some targets pop in iron that I might have missed with D2.  ID stability is a minor downside to Manticore compared the D2.  On the other hand, I think ferrous limits and the 2-D target trace display on Manticore are better at keeping from getting fooled by big deep iron that occasionally happens with the D2.

Steve, from a general detecting standpoint, I look at it this way: Either machine with the small coil (and a proficient operator) is going to probably eek out 8 or 9 keepers out of 10-12 keepers that exist in a given iron patch.  It's just that out of those 8 or 9 recovered keepers a couple are going to be different in each batch.  That's my gut feel and the reason I feel they "compliment" each other while being effectively equivalent. Sometimes, I just need a change of pace machine I can switch to if I'm in a slump with one machine or the other and it's good they have similar but slightly different performance.

Both machines are extremely versatile and with the M8 coil, I think ergonomics/weight end up being a tossup.

But to answer your question, for primarily gold, I'd probably lean Manticore.  The M8 coil just seems ideal for that.

For relics in iron, it's D2 and the 9" coil, but I would be fine working the spot over with M core and the M8 to see if anything else pops.

The thing you need to ask yourself, is whether the operator makes the difference.  Specifically, is target "interrogation" technique enhanced by D2's features and if that is one of the keys to Condor's success in iron.

Similarly, you appear to be more comfortable with the ML platform than with the D2 platform overall.  That comfort may be the thing that tips the scales for you in what appears to otherwise be a virtual tie.

[Steve Herschbach]

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

But to answer your question, for primarily gold, I'd probably lean Manticore.  The M8 coil just seems ideal for that.

Thanks for the detailed and well thought out response Hugh (and others). I will point out for the record though that gold is just another non-ferrous metal, not magical. Think $1 gold coin instead of gold nugget. From a straight up number of targets under coil a 5x8 coil should be superior to a 9" round coil from an electromagnetic perspective. My expectation would be that a 5x8 coil would have the edge over a 9" round coil finding a $1 gold coin in a nail pit. What you guys seem to be saying is you think that the Deus 2 processing and audio is superior to the Manticores to the point of negating the inherent edge a smaller coil size has. In a nail pit depth is not the issue - it is all about separation.

For those that are unaware as mineral concentrations become intense the depth advantages normally conferred on larger coils not only are negated but actually can be reversed. Everyone always assumes that larger coils always go deeper and I can promise you that with any VLF that is not the case in my ground. I'm talking ground where PI detectors struggle. A larger VLF coil can go into overload and stop actually detecting. You know that ability of the Equinox in Beach Mode to automatically lower transmit power to deal with extreme magnetite? That was me. That said, Condor and I have observed that the Deus 2 has exceptional extreme ground handling capability that combined with the 9" coil makes it a formidable option compared to a PI detector in bad ground. Similar to what the Tarsacci was touted as having but in a much more useable package.

So yeah Hugh while I am more comfortable with Minelab the fact is I may have to be an old dog learning new XP tricks. I am at a point where I want to pick one machine and be as expert as I can be with it as opposed to bouncing between two. Still looking to hit that magic combination of one good VLF and one good PI and being done with the new detector merry go round. That decades long goal of mine is well within reach now due to the latest options we have.

[Chase Goldman]

 

1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Hugh. I will point out for the record though that gold is just another non-ferrous metal, not magical.

Agreed - my relic equivalent mid-conductive targets are primarily brass buttons (though I wouldn't mind hitting another gold coin).  But when I said gold, I was looking at it from the perspective of sensitivity to targets smaller than button or coin, and if that is the objective, the M8 might have the edge due to physics (the more closely spaced magnetic field lines it produces) .

I feel that it has taken me a full 2 years of experience to get to where I am with the D2.  But along with that came two significant D2 updates within the past 6 months that accelerated not only my learning and proficiency but also my success because they actually improved D2 performance and usability namely:

• The addition of high square audio (1.X)
•  Added audio filter controls (1.X)
• Enabling iron volume for Full tones (1.X)
• Enhancing TID stability (1.X/2.0)
• Improving small, mid-conductive target sensitivity in Goldfield [and Relic].

I think that having the benefit of the latest 2.0 update out of the box will accelerate anybody's D2 learning curve vs. the early adopters who had to wait more than a year between the 0.71 and 1.1 updates.

My only caveats against declaring a clear winner here for me: 

First, I did pretty well on my first hunt with the Manticore/M8 in thick iron. Luck? Non-relevant?  Or...will I find even more success with tge Manticore as I learn to be as proficient with it as the D2.

Second, it really surprised me on detecting that tiny metallic sliver I found and mentioned in my first post on this thread.  Need to do a side-by-side with the M8 and D2 on that target.

Finally, while I have A LOT of hot dirt experience with the D2, I basically only have about 3 days with the D2 since ver 1.X came out and zero hot dirt experience with Manticore.

I'm still evaluating them both in this regard.

 

[palzynski]

2 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Depth may not matter in a bed of nails. Have you actually used the Manticore with 5x8 coil versus Deus 2 with 9" round coil or are you just opining as I asked people not to do? Assuming the 9" round coil gets better separation than a 5x8 seems like a very big assumption to me unless you know that for sure. Processing can only compensate so much for the undeniable fact a 9" round coil will have more targets under it at once than a 5x8 coil in a dense trash situation.

I was not discussing about the manticore as I dont have one , I was reacting to Soky72's post concerning the comparison of a D2 9"coil vs a D2 smaller coil . And I never said a 9" has a better separation than a smaller coil , I just said that a 9" D2 coil has still an excellent separation which is not the same thing ... 

[abenson]

6 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Asked another way I’m taking you to an 1850 location with some great gold. But the gold is in the middle of a tons of square nails and decomposed cans left by 100 years of miners. No modern trash, bullet bullets or brass the only real finds other than gold. You have a Deus 2 with 9” coil and Manticore with 5x8 coil and mean Steve will only let you take one. Which do you grab? What I’m hearing is the Deus 2 might be the one to go with.

For the spot you described I'm going with the Dues 2 and 9" coil. That being said I also wouldn't use the gold mode to detect a spot with nails, flat tin and bottle caps. I personally would switch to Sensitive Full Tones and run the offset at about 5 with a disc of about 10. Sensitive Full Tones offers the most accurate target ID of all the programs because it uses older filters. Most of the smaller gold on the Deus 2 will ID in the 30's or 40's. Use of the other programs with the filters they have will pull the target ID down to just above your disc level regardless of target conductivity or size when right next to iron. Which doesn't offer much in the way of help unless you just want to dig everything that comes in above the disc level. I personally would prefer to skip the obvious shotgun and rifle brass and concentrate on the more likely gold targets. Yea I know gold can come in anywhere but it can sure save time you don't have if the option is available. You can always go back once you can confirm gold is amongst the trash. Some other filters you can run are bottle cap at 2 and silencer at 2. I've found with those settings you can pretty much knock out 90% of the bottle caps and flat tin. Obviously any filter you add and by running in Sensitive Full Tones you'll probably miss the real tiny stuff under .20 grams. Bur sounds like you're after the bigger stuff anyway.

Now if you want to run Goldfield in the same area I would simply use the notch feature under the expert section of IAR discrimination and run it up to the mid 20's and that will knock out most of the nails but probably not the bottle caps or flat tin.

The biggest difference between the 2 is you'll hear the iron with Sensitive Full tones (you can use notch in SFT as well), but not with Goldfield. Goldfield would have a lot choppier audio since anything below 20 is being completely cut out. I really don't like IAR disc but that is also an option, just run it at a level that breaks up most iron. I find Sensitive Full Tones much easier on the ears and brain when hunting really trashy sites.

Glad I don't have to decide on just one because I really like the Manticore for gold prospecting. But for what you described, I'd use the Deus 2. 

[Steve Herschbach]

41 minutes ago, abenson said:

For the spot you described I'm going with the Dues 2 and 9" coil. That being said I also wouldn't use the gold mode to detect a spot with nails, flat tin and bottle caps. I personally would switch to Sensitive Full Tones and run the offset at about 5 with a disc of about 10. Sensitive Full Tones offers the most accurate target ID of all the programs because it uses older filters. Most of the smaller gold on the Deus 2 will ID in the 30's or 40's. Use of the other programs with the filters they have will pull the target ID down to just above your disc level regardless of target conductivity or size when right next to iron. Which doesn't offer much in the way of help unless you just want to dig everything that comes in above the disc level. I personally would prefer to skip the obvious shotgun and rifle brass and concentrate on the more likely gold targets. Yea I know gold can come in anywhere but it can sure save time you don't have if the option is available. You can always go back once you can confirm gold is amongst the trash. Some other filters you can run are bottle cap at 2 and silencer at 2. I've found with those settings you can pretty much knock out 90% of the bottle caps and flat tin. Obviously any filter you add and by running in Sensitive Full Tones you'll probably miss the real tiny stuff under .20 grams. Bur sounds like you're after the bigger stuff anyway.

Now if you want to run Goldfield in the same area I would simply use the notch feature under the expert section of IAR discrimination and run it up to the mid 20's and that will knock out most of the nails but probably not the bottle caps or flat tin.

The biggest difference between the 2 is you'll hear the iron with Sensitive Full tones (you can use notch in SFT as well), but not with Goldfield. Goldfield would have a lot choppier audio since anything below 20 is being completely cut out. I really don't like IAR disc but that is also an option, just run it at a level that breaks up most iron. I find Sensitive Full Tones much easier on the ears and brain when hunting really trashy sites.

Glad I don't have to decide on just one because I really like the Manticore for gold prospecting. But for what you described, I'd use the Deus 2. 

I agree on Gold Modes not being right just because gold is the goal. I'd use a Field Mode on the Equinox 800 for similar reasons vs Gold Mode in locations like that. I am pretty sure Condor is not a fan of Gold Modes in general. I'll see if I can get him to post here.

[strick]

21 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

 Think $1 gold coin instead of gold nugget. From a straight up number of targets under coil a 5x8 coil should be superior to a 9" round coil from an electromagnetic perspective. My expectation would be that a 5x8 coil would have the edge over a 9" round coil finding a $1 gold coin in a nail pit. What you guys seem to be saying is you think that the Deus 2 processing and audio is superior to the Manticores to the point of negating the inherent edge a smaller coil size has. In a nail pit depth is not the issue - it is all about separation.

If I were hunting specifically for a small a gold coin in a sea of nails then the 9" Deus 2...if I were hunting for a small gold ring in a sea of bottle caps the 5x8" M-Core.....that being said if you see me with the M-core 5x8" at that one spot it's because "Im trying something different" lol. I'm no expert with the deus 2 or the M-Core by any means and I've only been on one hunt with the 5x8" ! but I do have a general idea about what works (disclaimer: for me 😊)  in different environments...

 Gotta have more then two detectors 🙂

strick 

[Steve Herschbach]

17 minutes ago, strick said:

Gotta have more then two detectors

My posts often have more than one purpose. In this case not everyone, in fact the vast majority of detectors owners in the world, own more than one detector. It’s the easy answer in these forums - just own both. That however is of no help to the large number of people for whom these are expensive investments of money needed to pay bills. Or who don’t want 6 detectors cluttering up the place. For a lot of people it is a choice between this one or that one. Sure, I can afford to have both, but I always have an eye to those who can’t or choose not to, so sharpening the commentary by providing that edge is helpful in more ways than one. That’s for helping provide some clarity on this choice with your own experiences Chuck. 

[GB_Amateur]

On 2/20/2024 at 12:13 PM, Steve Herschbach said:

So yeah Hugh while I am more comfortable with Minelab the fact is I may have to be an old dog learning new XP tricks. I am at a point where I want to pick one machine and be as expert as I can be with it as opposed to bouncing between two.

2 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

It’s the easy answer in these forums - just own both. That however is of no help to the large number of people for whom these are expensive investments of money needed to pay bills. Or who don’t want 6 detectors cluttering up the place.

Between the two posts you've detailed three reasons:  learning time, cost, and storage.  In my case #1 drove me to the Manticore over the Deus 2.  But, always trying to be open-minded, I'm not sure I made the right choice.  Still, I learned from the Equinox that, for me, it takes a long time to really get familiar with a new (complicated) detector.  I haven't seen any world beater performance with the Manticore yet, but I don't expect that.  Every other time I take it out it gets a bit more comfortable (mentally, that is).  I expect that to continue.

[Skull diver]

I will follow this post carefully.

Although I don't yet own a Manticore, after a year and a half using the Deus 2 with 9" coil, although it is an effective and sensitive tool on really thin pieces, I am extremely displeased with the much scattered concentration of low conductors IDs.

I won't add anything else and I don't want to polemic, but if a solution doesn't come in a future update, I will sell the Deus 2 for a Manticore, even at the expense of lower detection depth and lower resistance in immersion depth.