Tom_in_CA

Now go back, and pass any/all coins that are less than 6" deep. Leave the clad for the next guys 🤣

Looks like a random rock to me. 🤔

Great show. I love those fresh-reveal-sequence pix !

Good report. Thanx for bringing us along ! Our west coast beach erosion season (at least where I'm at), can start as early as November-ish. That's when sometimes an early arriving Alaskan winter storm (d/t winter starts earlier, the further you go north, eh ?), can kick up swells that come all the way down to central CA, as early as Nov . By Dec. for sure. At *any* time of *any* year there can be fluke swells that roll through. Like an equatorial storm that sends swells all the way north to our part of North America . Those would be south swells. But the ones from Japan And Alaska tend to be NW to W direction.

Dan, I know your physical limitations put a damper on how far you can travel, and how long you stay out in-a-stretch. But would your ability allow you to do a 2-ish hr. drive southeast of you ? A buddy of mine discovered a small town park that, apparently, only past Whites, Garretts, etc... have done. Never had deeper seeking guys there I guess. He easily snared a dozen silver. Even back to a barber or two. Ie.: still had ample of the classic fluty 4-star signals to pick out. Park dates to 1900-ish. I stopped by their with Cal Cobra, on our way to somewhere else. He was using his 800, but .... he despises park turf hunting, (he's strictly a relic type guy). So it was no-match, and he quickly wanted to leave. But not till I'd pulled 3 or 4 silver, and multiple wheaties. If you and your etrac hunt buddy are game, let's all hit it.

Yes. But you're forgetting one-small ingredient : You're a robot, and not human. So it's not fair to compare us mere humans with robots. Tsk tsk. 🤔

Chase, I saw Raphis' post regarding the "diminishing returns" we're seeing in the last decade or two. Versus, yes, the advancements of 20 to 30 yrs. ago. There is no dispute that as time goes on : We hit a point of diminishing returns in depth and performance. Because, yes: There is only so much signal you can pump into the ground, and there is only so much information you can get-back-out of that signal. Agreed ! And : No amount of better/faster/smaller computerization changes this fact. Ie.: No amount of "faster and smaller" changes the laws of physics. So I'm totally on-board with what you and Raphis are saying. It's a given. Ok ? However, when someone comes on to a forum, and says they're experiencing 2x the silver results of detector X over detector Y (in this current decade), then.... it's to be expected that there'll be some curiosity floating. As to how X & Y stack up to each other. Ok ? 😬

The way my buddies and I solve this "subconscious bias" effect , is two systems : A) to purposefully flag poor targets (eg.: suspected nail, corroded zinc, etc...) and say "what do you get here ?, and B) to show them an area that's several feet square (that might have multiple signals), and say : "do you hear a potential deepie/oldie from somewhere around here ?" But not show them the exact spot. Otherwise, you are right : People will tend to "hear" something (and say "yes, no problem"), if it is pointed out to them. EVEN if they are trying to be totally honest with asking themselves : "Would I have heard it on my own". It's an easy self-conscious bias lull to fall for. I saw this happen when a dealer in CA had just gotten a newly introduced machine. We agreed to meet up at a certain zone of a certain park, where there was still some deep silver for those-in-the-know. The idea was, that we'd flag signals, to see how this new machine stacked up against known-machines . And each time I'd finally find an iffy deep "potential deepie silver/wheatie" type signal, I'd call him over . And sure enough, each time, he'd regale me with positive assessments. Of how he most definitely hears it, and would have chased it, etc.... But after an hour or so, of 3 or 4 such flags, I noticed that he had not yet called me over to check any suspected oldies from his perspective. Or if he HAD called me to check a flag, I might have said "shallow clad that I'd pass", or whatever . In other words, the flagging only seemed to work one-direction. So my suspicions were immediately aroused. So I flagged a purposeful pulltab or nail false, and other such things. And without revealing my TID-call, I called him over and asked "what do you hear here ?". He naturally assumed I was showing him yet-more deepie silver/wheatie signals. And so, one by one, he regaled me with assessments of how he thought they could be deep silver/wheaties. My trap was sprung , and I told him "I was just testing you" (and we'd proceed to dig junk from the test spots). BUSTED ! haha Anyhow, there IS ways to overcome the test-bias, and gain valuable information. So too is there ways to overcome the factor of "experience level". Or "settings levels". Ie.: To just immediately toss out results because "one person has more years experience md'ing". Or settings levels where : "Shucks, I guess that person didn't have his settings down right". I think there are ways to factor in and correct for these as well.

Dan, excellent post. The only thing I would add is, to the above quote : It would be the FIRST thing on-my-mind, to switch machines, if my buddy was showing me signals that I had to admit I couldn't hear. 🤪 As opposed to you and your Etrac buddy : It appears to be about a draw. WHICH ISN'T A BAD THING. Since : The Nox is lighter, and can do things on the beach that the Exp and Etrac can't do (micro-jewelry, if so-desired). And is a better ghost-townsy iron-see-through machine (with the right control adjustments).

Loved your post. That was the same history that happened here in CA too : When the XS and then the II came out, all of the sudden : Show & tell started trickling in, on forums. Of : "such & such silver today, from such & such park". At parks where, old-timers were scratching their heads thinking "Gee, it takes a hardcore expert to pull more silver from there, yet this yokel just casually gets 3 more barbers from there yesterday ?". 🤔 So you can bet a bunch of us perked up and paid attention. I even went out and took my Whites, to compare flagged signals with the II user. At a park where silver doesn't even START till 7" or-more. And within 15 minutes, the "lights went on" . And I knew that something was up. He was showing me signals, and correctly assessing their call, that .... it was EVERYTHING I COULD DO to even hear it. Ie.: I probably wouldn't have been drawn to them, if they had not been pointed out to me. HHHmmm. Conversely, I gleefully show him a few suspected deepie wheatie/silver signals. He swings over the flagged signal and says : "not a deep green wheatie. It is most likely a corroded zinc at 4" " So I dig it up, and ... he's right. 🤪 I tucked my tail between my legs, and quietly went out and bought an Explorer. Doh ! Within 3 or 4 yrs, a group outing that might have previously been a mix of Fishers, Whites, Garretts, and Minelabs, was now 90% Exp. II's (and the subsequent SE, Etrc, CTX, etc....). Doh ! 😬 So the point of this story is : Comparing flagged signals, with 2 proficient users, who can be totally honest about their assessments (ie.: Would I have heard that on my own ?, etc...) is very useful. It can go beyond "mere preference" and "mere experience level", and actually have evolution-bending results. This is a very niche category, of course. And no doubt the Explorer (and subsequent incarnations) will get its #ss kicked in other hunt environments.

And thanx for pointing out the dis-similarities with the TDI, for the purposes at-discussion. I am indeed making notes here.

I am indeed reading all that you lay out . And would love to get pulse depth, while retaining TID. If anyone ever harnesses such ability, to actually employ it in park hunting (junky urban parks), is the day that the world will beat a path to their door. If someone has gotten it even down to 50% ratio getting fooled (ie.: allowing that, sure, it won't be perfect), then : That's the day that parks would come alive again. Since, at present, it's 9" or 10" max, (and even that's max'ing things) on a dime-sized target, when/if cherry picking with standard machines. I know you don't want to come down to Sacramento , to try in turfed parks. But if someone in CA ever harnesses this, for use in parks, I'd love to do some flagged tests.

Glenn, back when the TDI came out, and it became known that, yes, there were tricks to knock out (well .... reduce) iron. And yes, tell high vs low TID's : There were persons who mused that it could therefore be used like as a coin/relic machine. As if they were now going to get the fabled pulse depth, while having all the upsides of disc audio-response (as you are musing here). Yet correct me if I'm wrong : It soon became apparent that, the moment that guys went to implement "the tricks", is the moment that Their depth was reduced to ........ effectively .... no different than standard coin machines. So it was sort of like "why bother ?" Not talking about wide open fields (with spread out targets). Or beach hunting (where TID isn't critical). But talking about, ... say ... park hunting where a bit of cherry-picking is-in-order. So this is the reason my question is the same as yours (neither of us is trying to be confrontational). It's a valid question, if subsequent generations of pulse and nugget machines have helped close this gap.

Ok, I guess I just can't wrap my head around a machine for coins, if/when coin-hunters generally want to pass iron. I guess it's dependent on the amount of iron a site presents.

Raphis, Ok, sure. Then... I don't understand : Since it's no secret that the GPX 6000 can get a dime to 1.5 foot deep, and since, as evidenced here, it can do so while passing iron and low conductors (if one opts), then .... I can't understand why you're not availing yourself of this fabulous depth in the junky parks of So. CA ? 🤔

Steve, great post. In-so-far as it relates to the beach : It's indisputable that the system will knock the pants off of standard discriminators for beach hunting. Eg.: CTX, Excal, Nox, etc.... For the very same reasons that beach pulse machines are popular : 1) ability in nasty minerals, 2) balls-to-the-walls depth, 3) Ability on dainty fine low conductors. I see that you do acknowledge that if a beach is riddled with small iron, that .... it can be a problem. But so too can the same be said with any beach pulse too. My question to you is : Since you're also expanding the potential to "coin & relic", and since there's a way to determine highs vs lows , then : Do you see an ability to use if for locations where A) someone intends to pass low conductors (like if they're cherry picking for old coins in junky turf), and B) they , of course, intend to pass iron. The in that case, once they employed all the tricks outlined here, are the essentially left with no more depth than a standard coin machine would afford them ?

I do not know anything about this. Did you ask me to help with a suit-case and I said "no" ? I'm totally confused about this. 🤔

Gentlemen, we are here to discuss machine technology pro's & con's. So : No harm no foul. Ok ? 🤔 Dan : Re.: the "famous hunt" : As I recall, we came away with the same # of silver. Didn't we ? But I *DO* recall being very smitten by your turf-skills. You were definitely the fabled silver robot ! As you still are. And I recall , from the famous hunt, where you pointed out a flagged signal. I recall saying : "I wouldn't have heard it" or "I think nail-false", or some such call. It turned out to be a nail false. I beamed with coy satisfaction 🤣 HOWEVER, then later, the same thing happened in reverse. Where I too was fooled by a nail false, that I had incorrectly called as potential deep high conductor. And you correctly poo-poohed it. And we both realized, at that moment, that .... It was somewhat of a tie on flagged signal "calls". Remember ? But no matter: Because that was the pre-Nox days, and doesn't lend to this conversation. Trust me: I WOULD LOVE for someone to show me a sideways step, or a better step, on turf. I have tried with a few Nox guys in turf, but ... so far ... no go . They get spanked 😞 Was it always/ever just individual hunt locations with EMI giving only the Nox fits ? Perhaps ! Was it Nox guys who "just didn't have enough practice" ? Perhaps ! So, without someone of equal par to duel with, it's understandable that I would take interest in a post like this. Where this duel has occurred between 2 renowned turf silver hunters, in the same exact locations. Ie.: flagged signals, averages over time, and the whole 9 yards. I meant no harm or ill-will.

I had to chuckle at this. I *have* seen some people , who live some place where some genius park system, invented a permit or rule, where there's some silly arbitrary thing like that. Eg.: "No deeper than 4" deep". Or "digger tool shall not exceed 3" in length", or whatever. And what perplexes me, in cases like that, is : Does anyone of us really think, even for a minute, that ANYONE is going around, armed with a ruler, measuring the holes that we dig ? Eg.: to see if we dug 5" rather than 4" deep ? Really ? I mean, seriously ? Of course not. This is much ado about nothing. I would not hesitate to go the extra inch deeper, if my pinpointer is screaming "silver" at the bottom of a 4" hole. And no, I do not think there is a man with dark sunglasses in a trenchcoat, hiding behind the tree, waiting to jump out and measure the depth of any hole I'm on.

Joe D, I got news for you : It's not just those locations, or those parks, or those entities, that "ban digging" in their parks. It's EVERY SINGLE PARK (and beach, and forest, and desert, etc...) in the entire USA. There is not a SINGLE speck of public land anywhere, where you can not find such prohibitions. If it doesn't use the exact word "dig" or "digging", it will indeed have some variation of : "Alter", "Deface", "Destroy", "molest", etc.... All of which can be construed to arrive at the same thing. Yet as you can see : MD'ing goes on everywhere. Even in-spite of such verbiage. How can that be ? Are we all just lawless miscreants ? No. Because if you leave no trace of your presence (ie: you cover, stomp, and fluff up), then presto: You have not alterED, nor defacED, nor destroyED anything. Now have you ? 🤨 And I would do the same with dIg vs dUg. The only difference is a spelling exercise. We do not spell the past tense of the word "dig" as "diggED". But the concept is identical. Will every last busy-body agree with those semantics ? OF COURSE NOT ! 🙄 So you go at lower traffic times and avoid such kill-joys. Presto, problem solved. If you try to "fight it" or "get it clarified", then you REALLY WILL get something codified, to address your "pressing issue". So, like nose-picking : Sometimes it's better just to opt for more discreet timing. 🤔 Rather than running around seeking everyone's permission and blessings.

And my answer to you, is the same as to Chase. So to expand, what would you say, to the counter-assertion, by this "certain individual", that the "calling the other guy over ..." *IS* going "both ways" ? That each of you two *IS* "finding obscure signals, on your-each own, to show each other ? With an equal #'s of flags ? Is he full of sh#t ? 🧐 And as for the days of whipped vs non-whipped, he asserts that, sure, some days one of you will spank the other . No doubt. But he asserts that there are days when the spanking goes the other direction . And over-time, when all the averages are said and done, that you guys are about equal, in total tallies. Thus : Is he full of sh#t with that statistic ? As far as your own personal game-changer statistic, that you have indisputable better tallies JUST COMPARED TO YOUR OWN IN-HOUSE before & after : We have discussed this before. And as you recall, I wondered if this was because you were an SE user. NOT the II. NOT the etrac. And IMHO (and many others who came up through the ranks of the Explorer evolution/incarnations), the SE was not the deeper of the bunch. It suffered criticism, that it afforded less depth than the others in the line-up. Yes you totally mastered it (your SE tallies were the stuff of legend). But just saying, to compare an SE to the 800 is, IMHO, not te same as a II or Etrac vs the 800.

Chase-goldman : If the flagging were only-going-one-direction, then yes: Everything you're saying would be true. Ie.: If it were the Nox guy asking the etrac guy "do you hear this", then sure: That's not a fair test. Because, sure, then the Etrac guy is going to be subconsciously biased to wave over the KNOWN SPOT (duh), and say "yes I hear it". And "yes I would have known that's potential deep silver". When, in fact, he is merely going by subconscious bias, to merely inflate any squeek he hears MERELY because it's been pointed out to him. I get it. But that's not what I was talking about. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about where/how BOTH machines are showing each other signals, that *each* of them can admit were the classic difficult deepies , for cherry-pick-turf-strategy. In the case I give, with the 2 individuals, the "flagging" is going both ways . Not the "one-way" that you seem to envision.

Dan, your junky turf urban park cherry-pick skills is the stuff of legend. So, Re.: the current the Nox vs your old-school arsenal : What would you say, to the assertion by "certain persons", who say that: When push comes to shove, @ the time of comparing flagged signals, that their Etrac can/could equally "call" the targets ? And/or that : At the end of the day (when averages are done over-time, tallying multiple hunts) that : There's no appreciable difference between your Nox tallies vs their Etrac tallies ? Are they full of sh*t, or.... what ? 🧐

I got barbers and mercs and a few IH's off the Prescott Courthouse lawn. But that was probably 25 or 30 yrs. ago 🙂

PHrunt, thanx for the link !