Fisher Has A Lot Of Models Marked Discontinued On Their Site And Teknetics Has 3 Models

[GB_Amateur]

1 hour ago, ☠ Cipher said:

There are a lot more like them. Some come from forums, some from interviews, some from social media, and some from private conversations. I would never break trust to say who has said what without permission.

If someone says something in a (recorded, made public) interview or posts something on social media, it's already out in the open -- no permission needed.  I understand why something said in a private conversation would require permission, though.

[☠ Cipher]

21 hours ago, mh9162013 said:

Wouldn't another way to make a significant advancement in metal detecting technology, without creating a new type of technology (a la MIQ, FBS, BBS, etc.) is simply speed up the processors in metal detectors?

I’m not sure on this. My understanding has been that the processing power has already been there for quite some time, and that often what these machines have for processors is even overkill. If that’s the case it would seem to be more of an issue as to how it was coded or the kind of algorithms used at the time. My memory could very well have this wrong, but that was what I took away from past discussions. Phrunt seems right too that most of the advances in processing lately have been in running more efficiently and cooler rather than achieving higher performance. My mid 2012 MacBook Pro competes nicely with anything made today. Under the hood you’ll just find that newer MacBooks run cooler and quieter with less hardware necessary to keep it cooler. 

[EL NINO77]

Any detection technology has a VLF 1F... or a Multi-F, it has a great chance and possibilities to improve it ... ,, but it is necessary to approach fundamental changes in thinking ... how a powerful metal detector should work ..

As for Fisher ... I believe he's working on something new ... and the new 12 "coil * Fisher's coil indicates that he's really trying to improve the detection capabilities of his detectors ....

  Since Fisher works at Engineering Time ... Carl Moreland also works .... there is great hope that Fisher ... will be able to deliver a new detection product that will exceed the features of the F75 and G2 models.

[mh9162013]

3 hours ago, ☠ Cipher said:

If that’s the case it would seem to be more of an issue as to how it was coded or the kind of algorithms used at the time.

But if that's the case, a much faster processor can compensate for slow code or inefficient algorithms, right?

[Geotech]

Yes, I've been reading this thread. No, no one else at FTP has likely read it, or will. As usual the criticisms are largely deserved. Here are some specific responses.

The original topic was about canceled products and I think that has been addressed. Products like the F2/F4/F5 have been replaced by the F11/F22/F44 and the F70 by the Patriot. I suspect the CZ3D is getting canceled because it doesn't sell. It's an expensive hand-built detector that has low margins.

FTP has 3 metal detector brands but one engineering dept. At least in that respect, it is not a disjointed effort. I have designed products for all 3 brands.

[History: The old George Payne Teknetics bought the Bounty Hunter brand and released some new BH detectors (Big Bud & others) until the whole thing went bankrupt. John Turner of El Paso (of Jetco and Techna brands) bought the BH/Tek assets and produced BH detectors. This is where BH got its reputation as being crap. Eventually FTP bought BH/Tek and cleaned up BH quality and reintroduced the Tek brand. The intent was that BH would be sold through big box stores and Tek through more traditional dealers. FTP then bought Fisher, primarily for the utility locators. Fisher quality was also crap and FTP cleaned that up. FTP continues to make products under all 3 brands as they still have different sales channels. In some cases they share circuits and software, in some cases not.]

The Fisher web site is an embarrassment. A few years ago it was professionally redesigned but never published. I just checked, the new design is still sitting there so I don't know why it has not been published. The new one looks pretty nice.

Yes, the new 12" 00 coil was designed for a new detector model which has been in development for several years. I haven't heard anything about it in quite a while.

There have been suggestions that "all we need to do" is revamp the CZ, digitize it, add wireless, make it waterproof, improve deep iron ID, faster target recovery, and add blendy-bleedy audio. That's called "a completely new design." FTP has been working on new multifrequency projects for many years but I don't know what is currently happening there.

On processor speed, processors have been fast enough for quite some time. Target recovery response is a strong function of the filter implementation (some in analog, some in DSP) and how the audio is processed. I recall back in the day when I used an XLT... target separation wasn't bad for those days but I found the menus to be sluggish. Then the DFX came along with double the processor speed. The menus were sure snappy, but target separation was the same. I'm sure they used the same filter and audio algorithms. It's a matter of recognizing what needs to be done (fast recovery) and designing the filters that will do it. Back then fast recovery wasn't on the radar but depth was, and there is some trade-off between the two.

This is pulling from another thread, but I saw the well-deserved feedback on the new GB2. Yes, it was done because the weird ground pot went obsolete. I had 2 proposals; first, replace the weird pot with a normal 10-turn pot and keep making the GB2 more-or-less as-is. Meanwhile, design an all-new GB3 with a digital back-end, auto tracking, and wireless. A co-worker and myself even built a prototype that worked pretty well but needed the usual polishing effort. It failed to generate any interest.

Currently I am not involved in any hobby detector design except for the Impulse, and that is not my primary focus (it's security products). Like everyone else here, I can also see what is happening, just like I did at White's. I have no delusions about where we are at and where we need to get to. Like at White's, it's particularly frustrating that I work here and can do nothing about it. Whatever happens will happen. But I will say we are not intentionally driving for Tesoro Cliffs.

[Addendum about White's: When I was at White's I could see clearly that there was no planned succession beyond Ken's funeral, other family members sure weren't the answer. There was some discussion on an employee buyout but it fizzled and by the time I left the writing on the wall was in large bold font. A once-stable Engineering dept. became a revolving door of new faces and no continuity of knowledge. The company was set up to fail, and the plan succeeded.]

 

[Bohemia Miner]

I know this doesn’t pertain to the original topic but this subject that was touched upon after White’s closed their doors; Is First Texas next?

“Most people who say they want waterproof will never set foot in water.” “Built in updates lend to hacking.” “Wireless headphones are not the best performance option.” On and on. The idea that many of our asks are unnecessary or extraneous is pervasive.”

I may never set foot in the water but like the ability to do so without having to purchase a separate machine, especially a Gold Prospecting model I may accidentally drop in the drink (which I have done!).

These “unnecessary or extraneous” features are becoming Industry Standards which American Companies seem to be having a hard time incorporating into their offerings.  For me, Wireless Headphones are a God send.  As far as software updates are concerned, I remember back in the day when White’s made an improvement on one of their machines, you could send it in and they’d do the upgrade for a small nominal fee.  Minelab on the other hand, would make you buy the newer model of Explorer rather than modify your old one to match it, if you wanted the latest and greatest.

“Employees move on, so in the case of some detectors like the older Fishers are the people who wrote the code even there? are they capable of modifying the code to modernize the detector?  Maybe they didn't keep up with the times themselves.”

Last time I checked; Dave Johnson who was responsible for the Gold Bug, GB2 and CZ series, is their Chief design Engineer.  Am I wrong?  Did he leave?

“I don't think doing this is beyond them but they just took the lazy way out once again and just released a paint job of it so nobody is inspired to buy it, it just continues the model if parts were no longer available being such an antique detector.”

A GB3 would be great.  The only reason to continue the GB2 is customer loyalty.  Ask 10 old time prospectors which Gold detector is the best and at least 80% of them will reply, "Fisher Gold Bug 2"!

I hate to see another American Company go under.  However, we should keep in mind that Metal Detectors are the only Electronics still made in the USA.  We used to produce TVs, radios, phonographs, etc.  I surmise that in the name of profits, it all went to Asia (Japan was the China of my youth).

Garrett seems to be holding their own.  I wish nothing but the best for FTP and hope they can deliver some of the “wants” the serious detecting community desires!  As mentioned, it would be a shame for them to purchase brands in the medium to high quality and price range only to end up pushing their lower end products.  I’m guessing the only reason for not buying White’s was because they didn’t have the financial resources to do so.

Walt

[Joe D.]

Geotech,

     Thanks for the brief rundown and history lesson! I'm guessing you could write a book or two, on the subjects you touched on!

    I'm also guessing that security product development is not as much fun as the hobby sector, but as with Garrett, it helps pay the bills, and keep them in the game on the hobby side! 

   Thanks again for being here, to give us what information you can! And hopefully, everyone is kind, and doesn't shoot the messanger!!???

    

[phrunt]

Thanks for the insight Geotech, your blunt honesty is always appreciated.

Sad to hear a lot of that, but not a surprise as most of it was clear as glass.  It seems they really have no desire to make anything other than entry level gear using their current technology, perhaps that's where the money is, it likely is especially if they have little chance of competing with the other brands anyway.  They've had a good run, every dog has it's day.

The GB3 you speak of with auto tracking and wireless would have been a reasonable seller I would think, sure probably not a big money maker for them as people would just think I've lived with the original for 20 years and got used to the manual GB I'm not paying for a new one to get auto tracking and wireless which  I can just add on a little $20 Bluetooth transmitter to get. ?

They would likely sell more of them than they will the current GB2 especially to new buyers that haven't had one before with it being more modern it would be more appealing.  I know I would have wanted one so that's one sale at least ?

I guess all that FT has left for me is the Impulse Gold, I'll wait and see how that turns out, if it ever does.

As for this comment from Bohemia Miner.....  I also assume you mean Gold VLF is best as if it's up against the other detectors it's a LONG LONG way from the best.

A GB3 would be great.  The only reason to continue the GB2 is customer loyalty.  Ask 10 old time prospectors which Gold detector is the best and at least 80% of them will reply, "Fisher Gold Bug 2"!

Those same people aren't gong to be rushing out to buy a GB2, they have one.... If it dies they might buy another... possibly second hand, or get it repaired if possible.    I'm not an old time prospector but I don't find the GB2 to be the best, most sensitive to tiny gold? possibly but there is very little in it and for most other reasons I'd rather use something else.  I like it's little coil and how it's not bump sensitive at all, but some of the competitors have non-bump sensitive very sensitive coils too on detectors that handle ground better but for me the biggest flaw with the GB2 is it sucks around hot rocks, absolutely sucks.  It's too busy making it's boing noise to worry about sounding off on the nugget next to the hot rock, it's about as slow as an old model T Ford, similar vintage too ? vs other detectors that are like Mustangs and quickly recover from the hot rock and let you find the gold.  I don't have hot soil but I have hot rocks, and lots of them ?

Out of those 10 old time prospectors that 80% think the GB2 is best I would guess not many of them use the GB2 as their primary VLF anymore, for me it's a specialty VLF for certain tasks and other than that, it's my antique collectable. 

[☠ Cipher]

On 10/20/2021 at 5:48 PM, Geotech said:

Currently I am not involved in any hobby detector design except for the Impulse, and that is not my primary focus (it's security products).

I’m sorry to hear this personally and it gives me even less hope that the ship will get back on course. You seem to be someone who does have a good vision for the hobby and have for quite some time. Those who have believed that First Texas can find its bearings, maybe even soar to the top have cited two engineers, yourself and Dave Johnson, who could make that happen. If you’re not on those projects and Dave is battling ALS (if that’s what he meant to imply in an interview posted on Fisherlab.com), I’m not sure where that leaves FT. Last I heard he felt he was being successful treating it on his own, and I hope that’s still the case. He’s a legend in the hobby.