Manticore In Iron (nail Beds)

[steveg]

2 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

A good video and I won't nitpick on a couple things he said that I (mildly) disagree with.  I like his style of letting us see and hear the targets (good AND bad), rather than just showing him digging and recovering.

One of my take-aways is that FBS users are going to be up the learning curve, which I don't mind -- they deserve it for the hours they've used those detectors.

Another (less obvious?) take-away that I seem to disagree with others -- the settings being used, canned as they are, don't cover the full phase space of what can be adjusted.  That includes the audio options plus the Ferrous Limit settings options.  I also don't think we know (and I await the oscilloscope users to tell us) what frequencies are being transmitted.

I vaguely recall Tom Dankowski early on saying ferrous limit tweaking would emphasize some targets that otherwise aren't enhanced with (some, anyway) canned settings.  This appears to be WAY more adjustable than the FE and F2 iron bias adjustments available with the Equinox.

I see a tendency of some to denigrate the 2-d screen info (what is being coined 'Target Trace', which is part but not all of the info).  And if those features don't add value over the Equinoxes then I get it.  But can we conclude that already?  (I'll answer for myself -- no.)

I also understand why Deus 2 owners&users aren't as keen on the Manticore as others.  In my case if I already had invested $1600 and many learning hours in one of those I wouldn't be hot get get a Manticore, either.  And yes, it might even now be the better investment for those of us who have neither.

Addendum:  Initially I was concerned that the Bluetooth system might add enough delay that the trick he was showing to ID iron would be lost when using the ML105 headphones.  However, for part of the video he was using those and didn't mention any loss of that ability.  This could mean that the Bluetooth is considerably faster than the conservative 30-40 ms latency being tossed about here and elsewhere.  (Pretty sure ML has not yet given an indication of the ML105 system latency, and knowing ML they might never...).

 

There is so much I could say, about Ferrous Limits, and target trace, and what should be understood (in the background) about what is going on, in terms of FE and CO, and how that relates to limits, and how we should thus be setting up the machine, and using Ferrous Limits properly, to our advantage, IN LIGHT OF that understanding...

But, I don't know how to say things succinctly, and I know people don't like reading "War and Peace" in forum posts.  And if I tried to type out my thoughts, I know that a tome like "War and Peace" would emerge!  So, not sure how to help here...

If I knew someone who was good at doing videos, and could edit/upload etc., I'd do a video and put it out there.  I feel like I have things in my head (much of it carried over from FBS) that could really help here, but don't know of a good way to get it out there and not have 99% of people ignore it due to length (i.e. the tl;dr thing), and how many of the 1% who would try, would then have their eyes glaze over!

Steve

[steveg]

Maybe someone could tell me how to do a YouTube livestream...and then anyone who wanted could tune in...LOL...

Steve

[Chase Goldman]

1 minute ago, steveg said:

But, I don't know how to say things succinctly, and I know people don't like reading "War and Peace" in forum posts. 

That doesn't stop me, Steve.  

[steveg]

2 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

That doesn't stop me, Steve.  

It often doesn't stop me, either, Chase...but I know I annoy people and don't like to do that.  I just had someone on one of the forums yesterday, after I posted a reply to what he posted, say "we said the same thing, I just didn't take 300 words to do it like you did..."  Ouch!  ?

Steve

[steveg]

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

It's not clear that Brass Medic is just using the canned settings.  I think he was experimenting with some of the other All Terrain modes and indeed using defaults, but Brass Medic is an experienced CTX user (he states that he bought one when they were first released) so he knows how to set up the 2D disc patterns, yet he IS saying that M-core needs an update to address nail falsing.  I am taking this to mean that even with enhanced upper ferrous limit adjustments from the defaults for his preferred All Terrain mode, he is still having issues.  Can't be 100% sure of this, but it seems to be the case.

This is not just about the 2-d screen info nor denigrating the visual capability of the feature.  If upper ferrous limits are working as intended by the design and are appropriately adjusted, then, as described in the manual, nails should also sound off (not just display) as ferrous even if their TIDs reside in the non-ferrous region.  It appears that nails are really showing up near the centerline, this means you have to set really aggressive upper ferrous limit settings giving you a very narrow margin of error such that you can start to get false ferrous indications for non-ferrous targets that are showing up slightly off above the center line.  This situation would be a highly undesirable versus simple ferrous falsing which is more of an annoyance/time waster, at least in those cases you actually recovered the target versus unknowingly rejecting non-ferrous and moving on without recovery. 

I agree we can't conclude that features don't add value yet today because we need to give ML a chance to fix the issues with an update.  Otherwise, it is not looking good in its present state based on a number of things that occurred in this and other videos namely: the iron nail falsing, bottle cap "false", and the beer can that looked like (on the 2-D display) and ALSO sounded like, a coin.  Hopefully, ML can address these issues with additional time and effort.

 

There is SO MUCH I could say here.  I really want to do an interactive YouTube livestream...

Your middle paragraph above is PARTIALLY true, but not entirely...

I need to ponder how to collect my thoughts and communicate them.  

Is doing a YouTube livestream (if you have a channel already) a hard thing to set up/accomplish?

Steve

[Chase Goldman]

4 minutes ago, steveg said:

There is SO MUCH I could say here.  I really want to do an interactive YouTube livestream...

Your middle paragraph above is PARTIALLY true, but not entirely...

I need to ponder how to collect my thoughts and communicate them.  

Is doing a YouTube livestream (if you have a channel already) a hard thing to set up/accomplish?

Steve

I don't have expertise on that.  Perhaps setting up a live, interactive, scheduled zoom or teams session for DP members to participate in would be a good option.  Anyone else who has any ideas along these lines, please feel free to chime in.

[Digalicious]

Steve,

Your paragraphs explaining that you don't know how to say things succinctly, was very succinct ? 

[GB_Amateur]

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

If upper ferrous limits are working as intended by the design and are appropriately adjusted, then, as described in the manual, nails should also sound off (not just display) as ferrous even if their TIDs reside in the non-ferrous region.  It appears that nails are really showing up near the centerline, this means you have to set really aggressive upper ferrous limit settings giving you a very narrow margin of error such that you can start to get false ferrous indications for non-ferrous targets that are showing up slightly off above the center line.

I've yet to see anyone customize the ferrous limits.  The case you make may well be the best case solution, but I'm reproducing a page from the manual:

Note the graphics in the right column under point 4., as well as the instructions there.  It appears both the starting points and widths (5 bins?) in each of the upper and lower ferrous limit sections as well as their amplitudes/magnitudes can be adjusted.  How much will this help ID'ing falsing iron?  I don't know.  Does anyone yet know?  (That question is rhetorical, BTW.)

Maybe I'll swing down to Oklahoma and get some lessons from Steveg after we both get our units.  He may think he writes long posts but I can hold my own against the best here on that front.  But I promise to zip my lips and listen, at least for the first 15 minutes or so.  ?

Meanwhile I hope Minelab is paying attention.  They made some appropriate software updates for the Equinox 600 & 800.  Let's see that R&D money they brag about continue to be put to good use here, please.

[Chase Goldman]

43 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

I've yet to see anyone customize the ferrous limits.  The case you make may well be the best case solution, but I'm reproducing a page from the manual

I've had discussions with a Manticore owner and they have indeed adjusted the upper ferrous limits as high as 12 to 14 (the max limit, just short of the centerline, see below) in an attempt to limit nail falsing but some nails are still bleeding through onto the centerline.  Looks like ML needs to further tweak the small ferrous signal processing to move them further away from the the centerline.