Manticore In Iron (nail Beds)

[palzynski]

58 minutes ago, Digalicious said:

...
The saving grace is that these newer detectors are fixable via firmware updates 🙂
 

Not always ...

This Mcore story recalls me a detector from an other brand that I have tested 2 years ago . A similar issue with falsing in the irons ... The issue has never been fixed 

Good vid btw . At least we have now feedbacks from field users , often more reliable than manufacturers or even sellers infos ...

[Chase Goldman]

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

Another (less obvious?) take-away that I seem to disagree with others -- the settings being used, canned as they are, don't cover the full phase space of what can be adjusted.  That includes the audio options plus the Ferrous Limit settings options.  I also don't think we know (and I await the oscilloscope users to tell us) what frequencies are being transmitted.

It's not clear that Brass Medic is just using the canned settings.  I think he was experimenting with some of the other All Terrain modes and indeed using defaults, but Brass Medic is an experienced CTX user (he states that he bought one when they were first released) so he knows how to set up the 2D disc patterns, yet he IS saying that M-core needs an update to address nail falsing.  I am taking this to mean that even with enhanced upper ferrous limit adjustments from the defaults for his preferred All Terrain mode, he is still having issues.  Can't be 100% sure of this, but it seems to be the case.

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

I see a tendency of some to denigrate the 2-d screen info (what is being coined 'Target Trace', which is part but not all of the info).  And if those features don't add value over the Equinoxes then I get it.  But can we conclude that already?  (I'll answer for myself -- no.)

This is not just about the 2-d screen info nor denigrating the visual capability of the feature.  If upper ferrous limits are working as intended by the design and are appropriately adjusted, then, as described in the manual, nails should also sound off (not just display) as ferrous even if their TIDs reside in the non-ferrous region.  It appears that nails are really showing up near the centerline, this means you have to set really aggressive upper ferrous limit settings giving you a very narrow margin of error such that you can start to get false ferrous indications for non-ferrous targets that are showing up slightly off above the center line.  This situation would be a highly undesirable versus simple ferrous falsing which is more of an annoyance/time waster, at least in those cases you actually recovered the target versus unknowingly rejecting non-ferrous and moving on without recovery. 

I agree we can't conclude that features don't add value yet today because we need to give ML a chance to fix the issues with an update.  Otherwise, it is not looking good in its present state based on a number of things that occurred in this and other videos namely: the iron nail falsing, bottle cap "false", and the beer can that looked like (on the 2-D display) and ALSO sounded like, a coin.  Hopefully, ML can address these issues with additional time and effort.

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

I also understand why Deus 2 owners&users aren't as keen on the Manticore as others.  In my case if I already had invested $1600 and many learning hours in one of those I wouldn't be hot get get a Manticore, either.  And yes, it might even now be the better investment for those of us who have neither.

In my case, this is really independent of Deus 2.  I am looking at this solely as 900 vs. Manticore configuration for relic hunting.  So far, even with a broken horseshoe button, I am liking the 900 vs. the 800 and probably even "today's" Manticore for relic hunting based on some testing I did today and what I have seen of M-core.  More on that in a separate post.

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

Addendum:  Initially I was concerned that the Bluetooth system might add enough delay that the trick he was showing to ID iron would be lost when using the ML105 headphones.  However, for part of the video he was using those and didn't mention any loss of that ability.  This could mean that the Bluetooth is considerably faster than the conservative 30-40 ms latency being tossed about here and elsewhere.  (Pretty sure ML has not yet given an indication of the ML105 system latency, and knowing ML they might never...).

The same BT-LE system on the 900 seems pretty solid even with the lower end ML-85's (the ML-85 has the same  Nordic nrf5340 BT LE system on a chip (SOC) as the ML-105's, just cheaper audio drivers).  As Brass Medic was noting, the wireless audio was responding the same as the handle vibration in terms of the iron "delay".  They appeared sync'd up with little lag between the vibration and wireless audio.  I found the same in-sync behavior with the Nox 900 vibration and ML-85 audio.  Even though I am not as sensitive to latency as you are Chuck, I do find latency WORSE than APTX-LL to be noticeable and unacceptable.  I can say with certainty that the 900 wireless was no worse than APTX-LL and possibly better wrt to latency and the signal was definitely rock solid and without interference and crackling that I have experienced with APTX-LL.  All of this is good news other than the present lack of compatible third-party BT-LE audio accessory options.  FWIW.

[Chase Goldman]

31 minutes ago, scoopjohnb said:

Then my buddy who is a Minelab official detexpert involved in the Manticore being what it is today. Messed around with the settings, fiddled with tones, pitch, threshold and whatnot.

Would be great to have details on what he needed to adjust vs. the defaults to make it come alive.

[Digalicious]

48 minutes ago, palzynski said:

Not always ...

This Mcore story recalls me a detector from an other brand that I have tested 2 years ago . A similar issue with falsing in the irons ... The issue has never been fixed 

 

Well that's interesting.

Do you know if it wasn't fixed due to the issue being unfixable, the manufacturer unwilling, the manufacturer concluding it wasn't a problem, or something else?

[longbow62]

56 minutes ago, scoopjohnb said:

Hold your horses, assumptions, misconceptions, misdirections and wrong turns.

Easy does it.

Today I borrowed a Manty and just followed the preset straight out of the box and went detecting for about 4 hours.

It has jaw dropping performance and instead of using a pinpointer. I was waving handfulls of dirt across the coil old skool style. Why,... because the pinpointer couldn’t see the target half of the time. And the other half the find just stuck to the pointer because the soil was muddy.

Then my buddy who is a Minelab official detexpert involved in the Manticore being what it is today. Messed around with the settings, fiddled with tones, pitch, threshold and whatnot.

And I was hearing ground minerals, small Iron nulling the threshold super fast, large Iron coming through, the occasional false and targets coming in loud and clear as if they were calling me out from the crowd with the familiarty of my wife calling my name!!

Tommorow is another day, another hunt and I feel like my whole detecting experience bag has been ripped to bits and I’m puzzling with unknown pieces to make it fit.

 

But DAMN THIS PUPPY HUNTS!!!

Are you the person a few weeks back that made the comment you were selling the D2 after hunting with the Manticore a couple of hours. Your from Belgium so I  guess your hunting relics with iron around? What are your experience's with falsing? Isn't there coke that falses like nails over there too besides the extremely old iron?

[steveg]

2 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

A good video and I won't nitpick on a couple things he said that I (mildly) disagree with.  I like his style of letting us see and hear the targets (good AND bad), rather than just showing him digging and recovering.

One of my take-aways is that FBS users are going to be up the learning curve, which I don't mind -- they deserve it for the hours they've used those detectors.

Another (less obvious?) take-away that I seem to disagree with others -- the settings being used, canned as they are, don't cover the full phase space of what can be adjusted.  That includes the audio options plus the Ferrous Limit settings options.  I also don't think we know (and I await the oscilloscope users to tell us) what frequencies are being transmitted.

I vaguely recall Tom Dankowski early on saying ferrous limit tweaking would emphasize some targets that otherwise aren't enhanced with (some, anyway) canned settings.  This appears to be WAY more adjustable than the FE and F2 iron bias adjustments available with the Equinox.

I see a tendency of some to denigrate the 2-d screen info (what is being coined 'Target Trace', which is part but not all of the info).  And if those features don't add value over the Equinoxes then I get it.  But can we conclude that already?  (I'll answer for myself -- no.)

I also understand why Deus 2 owners&users aren't as keen on the Manticore as others.  In my case if I already had invested $1600 and many learning hours in one of those I wouldn't be hot get get a Manticore, either.  And yes, it might even now be the better investment for those of us who have neither.

Addendum:  Initially I was concerned that the Bluetooth system might add enough delay that the trick he was showing to ID iron would be lost when using the ML105 headphones.  However, for part of the video he was using those and didn't mention any loss of that ability.  This could mean that the Bluetooth is considerably faster than the conservative 30-40 ms latency being tossed about here and elsewhere.  (Pretty sure ML has not yet given an indication of the ML105 system latency, and knowing ML they might never...).

 

There is so much I could say, about Ferrous Limits, and target trace, and what should be understood (in the background) about what is going on, in terms of FE and CO, and how that relates to limits, and how we should thus be setting up the machine, and using Ferrous Limits properly, to our advantage, IN LIGHT OF that understanding...

But, I don't know how to say things succinctly, and I know people don't like reading "War and Peace" in forum posts.  And if I tried to type out my thoughts, I know that a tome like "War and Peace" would emerge!  So, not sure how to help here...

If I knew someone who was good at doing videos, and could edit/upload etc., I'd do a video and put it out there.  I feel like I have things in my head (much of it carried over from FBS) that could really help here, but don't know of a good way to get it out there and not have 99% of people ignore it due to length (i.e. the tl;dr thing), and how many of the 1% who would try, would then have their eyes glaze over!

Steve

[steveg]

Maybe someone could tell me how to do a YouTube livestream...and then anyone who wanted could tune in...LOL...

Steve

[Chase Goldman]

1 minute ago, steveg said:

But, I don't know how to say things succinctly, and I know people don't like reading "War and Peace" in forum posts. 

That doesn't stop me, Steve.  

[steveg]

2 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

That doesn't stop me, Steve.  

It often doesn't stop me, either, Chase...but I know I annoy people and don't like to do that.  I just had someone on one of the forums yesterday, after I posted a reply to what he posted, say "we said the same thing, I just didn't take 300 words to do it like you did..."  Ouch!  🙂

Steve

[steveg]

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

It's not clear that Brass Medic is just using the canned settings.  I think he was experimenting with some of the other All Terrain modes and indeed using defaults, but Brass Medic is an experienced CTX user (he states that he bought one when they were first released) so he knows how to set up the 2D disc patterns, yet he IS saying that M-core needs an update to address nail falsing.  I am taking this to mean that even with enhanced upper ferrous limit adjustments from the defaults for his preferred All Terrain mode, he is still having issues.  Can't be 100% sure of this, but it seems to be the case.

This is not just about the 2-d screen info nor denigrating the visual capability of the feature.  If upper ferrous limits are working as intended by the design and are appropriately adjusted, then, as described in the manual, nails should also sound off (not just display) as ferrous even if their TIDs reside in the non-ferrous region.  It appears that nails are really showing up near the centerline, this means you have to set really aggressive upper ferrous limit settings giving you a very narrow margin of error such that you can start to get false ferrous indications for non-ferrous targets that are showing up slightly off above the center line.  This situation would be a highly undesirable versus simple ferrous falsing which is more of an annoyance/time waster, at least in those cases you actually recovered the target versus unknowingly rejecting non-ferrous and moving on without recovery. 

I agree we can't conclude that features don't add value yet today because we need to give ML a chance to fix the issues with an update.  Otherwise, it is not looking good in its present state based on a number of things that occurred in this and other videos namely: the iron nail falsing, bottle cap "false", and the beer can that looked like (on the 2-D display) and ALSO sounded like, a coin.  Hopefully, ML can address these issues with additional time and effort.

 

There is SO MUCH I could say here.  I really want to do an interactive YouTube livestream...

Your middle paragraph above is PARTIALLY true, but not entirely...

I need to ponder how to collect my thoughts and communicate them.  

Is doing a YouTube livestream (if you have a channel already) a hard thing to set up/accomplish?

Steve