F5 Vs F75 Or T2 All Metal

[GB_Amateur]

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

Just some specific and general commentary on this thread discussion…

Chuck, I’m personally aving trouble visualizing your axis orientation descriptions above but I’m also just naturally challenged at visualizing 3D word problems, I guess.  Specifically, your axis at coil terminology/descriptions, i.e., “pointing at” and “perpendicular to” the coil and “short side” and “long direction” are confusing to me when I consider the bullet’s shape and “in ground orientation” and the plane of the coil and the fact that a DD coil’s active detection “spine”, oriented roughly perpendicular to the sweep path.  For example, a bullet could be oriented roughly vertical in ground (which is my interpretation of what you mean by the axis “pointed at” the coil, but that also means the the axis is “perpendicular” to the coil sweep plane).  Explaining it with a reference to how the bullet would be oriented in the ground assuming a DD coil parallel to the ground perpendicular to the coil sweep path (assuming you were using the stock DD coil) or providing a simple diagram would help (see my crude cave drawing below).

Also, a lot of discussion about air tests here and somebody mentioned that real world, in-ground detection depths would be less than air tests.  You really can’t make a definitive statement like that because soil conditions (moisture, mineralization, and density) and how the soil responds to the detector’s particular operating frequency, and target characteristics can all contribute to make in ground detection depth performance exceed or be significantly less than measured in air tests.  In general, highly mineralized ground will indeed show depth performance significantly less than air tests but this situation would also compress the difference in depth readings vs. the air tests, potentially rendering those differences insignificant.  Example - an air test could show a minie ball for one set of conditions in air to be 14 inches and the other to be 12 inches.  In hot ground, that might translate into 5 inches and 4.5 inches.  Yes even half an inch is not insignificant (miss it by half an inch, miss it by a mile), but just noting that it’s always hard to draw hard and fast conclusions from air tests.  Looking forward to what @Daniel Tn experiences in that bullet field with the T2.

I am also a relic hunter and I could dig minie balls all day long (and have done so) with total enjoyment.  But I love buttons, tokens, ID tags, Corps badges, coins (copper, brass, bronze, nickel, silver, and gold), brass knapsack and uniform accoutrements, belt and cartridge box plates, artillery projectiles, and even ferrous camp objects.  I have found that optimizing my machine choice and setup around a specific target objective or test target type is mostly counter productive unless I am solely seeking that target type.  Not saying this is the case, but that T2 may kill on lead minies but might turn out not being all that on buttons or other relics, for example, under certain conditions, because you are limited to a single frequency while dealing with an infinite number of variables.  It is the reason I moved from single frequency, to selectable single frequency, and now to simultaneous Multifrequency and really haven’t looked back.  Plus I subscribe to the @Steve Herschbach school of thought:  VLF when you can, PI if you must.  Yep, I still have my venerable MXT, F75, and a G2+.  But that’s mostly nostalgia mixed with wanting to retain at least one machine that still accommodates concentric wound coils (which is why I did got rid of my T2).  Though I haven’t used them for that reason for close to 5 years now.  But this thread has tempted me to re-visit the F75 and consider marrying it up to Fisher’s latest coil just to see what it can do, perhaps even in my planned visits to Culpeper this month.  Though to be honest, I’ll probably just run the Axiom and bring along my D2 in my day pack as a backup.

Again, would like to hear how the T2 works out for Daniel on bullets and relics in general.  I understand the desire to neck down to as few machines as needed, and for my part will start thinning the herd soon.

GL. HH.

Nice post Hugh, and rather a general one but that's good since not everyone has the 'background' knowledge, particularly with a specific detector model.  I think I agree with everything you said (after one readthru).  I'll try to answer what is specifically directed at my post.

Yes, your drawing is consistent with my air test measurements.  I should have done a better job (with drawings or photos) than counting simply on words which sometimes can be confusing.

My intent (there's that word again ?) was to confirm/refute the measurements Daniel made with his F75, not to claim he made a mistaken measurement but rather to ask "do all of the DST models of the F75 give weaker air test performances than the original non-DST models?"  I was definitely not implying that my results (or his) would carry over to actual in-ground targets.  (You knew this but maybe others didn't....)  Also, since he used a Civil War(CW) bullet I tried as close as possible to use a similar target, although that alone was a 'weakness' of my test.  At least mine was smaller, not larger, but I think it's likely the composition is different.   BTW, no one has yet answered my question about CW bullet composition.  JCR talked about bullets in general, though.  During a Google search I did see a claim that CW bullets were pure lead, but that was from a metal detecting forum post (not our beloved DetectorProspector.com forum) so I was unsure of its veracity.

My F75 is a great backup detector to the Minelab Equinox 800 and soon it will be 3rd in line, but still not going anywhere.  I've always found it deep, but it's not (in my experience) very good at ID'ing coins nearly as deep in-ground as the Eqx 800.  Part of that is surely its single frequency (13 kHz) vs. the Eqx multifrequency (~5-6 kHz combined with ~38 kHz, with maybe one other freq in-between).  Been said before and worth saying again -- it (ditto its older cousin, Teknetics T2) is still the best ergonomic design out there that I'm aware of.  (Now I've started another detector war....  ?)

[Chase Goldman]

47 minutes ago, Daniel Tn said:

Chase -- Are you referring to the newer 12" weird looking coil by Fisher?  I have one for the F75 you can borrow if you don't have one. No sense in paying $200 just to try one. I did not notice any real difference in depth over the stock coil but it certainly is lighter weight. I ordered the Super Fly coil for the T2 last night.  I really liked those machines paired with the DeTech Ultimate 13 coil...but that Super Fly looked bad to the bone.  

Daniel,

Thanks greatly for the info on that 12" coil.  First person I've heard of that has actually used it!  I was looking at it mainly for weight and reduced footprint in hot dirt.  I have a 13" Ultimate on the F75 right now.  I will look into the Super Fly, and thanks greatly for the offer to borrow and try that new coil.  I'll PM you if I decide to try it out after all.  I think I will bring the F75 to Culpeper at least with the stock and bake it off against the D2, Nox 900, and Legend on Minies.  Right now focusing on getting half way proficient on the Axiom b4 the trips down.

[Daniel Tn]

Got home and just put the T2 on the measuring board.  Moment of truth....motion all metal. 95 sens. .58 cal minie ball = 14.5 inches loud and clear.  If you wanted to go by just a consistent whisper, you could say 15 inches.   This is on par with my buddies pre DST unit.  If I put that bad boy in BP mode and flip over to all metal mode, it gets it at 16 inches and a very nice bass thump at 14-15.  Very impressed and happy with that.  That's how it should be.  

Chase -- My first few trips to Culpeper was with the F75. I can tell ya...nothing is going to read right.  Almost every target I dug had an iron ID.  Seemed like the numbers were 11s and 13s most of the time.  I dug a breast plate just 10 inches or so deep...total iron signal til it was out of the hole.  I think I had 80 something dropped and carved bullets, 20 or so buttons, a plate, and other odds and ends like j hooks, bayonet scabbards, etc on my first hunt up there with it.  But...my buddy had a TDI and he came over to the little spot I had found and was pulling stuff left and right after I had pounded it for 2.5 days with the F75.  I had a TDI by the next hunt lol. That was my intro to pulse vs vlf.  The next hunt there (Coles Hill) I went back to that little camp to get leftovers and never left it for 3 days. I pulled over 100 minies out of it, close to 50 buttons, and another breast plate.  I never got to hunt there with a GPX.  

[Rick N. MI]

I found the T2se with dst in all metal to still be very deep. Put it in boost mode then all metal. All metal gets a boost.

[Chase Goldman]

1 hour ago, Daniel Tn said:

Got home and just put the T2 on the measuring board.  Moment of truth....motion all metal. 95 sens. .58 cal minie ball = 14.5 inches loud and clear.  If you wanted to go by just a consistent whisper, you could say 15 inches.   This is on par with my buddies pre DST unit.  If I put that bad boy in BP mode and flip over to all metal mode, it gets it at 16 inches and a very nice bass thump at 14-15.  Very impressed and happy with that.  That's how it should be.  

Chase -- My first few trips to Culpeper was with the F75. I can tell ya...nothing is going to read right.  Almost every target I dug had an iron ID.  Seemed like the numbers were 11s and 13s most of the time.  I dug a breast plate just 10 inches or so deep...total iron signal til it was out of the hole.  I think I had 80 something dropped and carved bullets, 20 or so buttons, a plate, and other odds and ends like j hooks, bayonet scabbards, etc on my first hunt up there with it.  But...my buddy had a TDI and he came over to the little spot I had found and was pulling stuff left and right after I had pounded it for 2.5 days with the F75.  I had a TDI by the next hunt lol. That was my intro to pulse vs vlf.  The next hunt there (Coles Hill) I went back to that little camp to get leftovers and never left it for 3 days. I pulled over 100 minies out of it, close to 50 buttons, and another breast plate.  I never got to hunt there with a GPX.  

Yep.  I hunt there almost exclusively with the GPX and only pull the vlf out for work in thick iron or to scan the dirt dug out of a pit, use it in wooded areas where the dirt is not as hot or simply when my shoulder wears outcfrom the GPX.  Not everyone has a PI (I wrote an article for the DIV website on why a PI is the preferred choice of Culpeper "veterans") there so I like to give advice on which of the new VLFs tend to work best in the hot stuff (and even "the classics" like the F75/T2 and MXT) if I have time I run some comparitive tests.  The hardest thing to get across to folks not used to the hot stuff is that there is a big diffrence between detection depth and ID depth on a vlf in that soil.  ID depth runs out very quickly within anywhere from 2 to 6 inches.  After that, you can hear the target but the ID Is unreliable.  So it becomes a dig it all situation.

I had success at the last DIV by taking my D2 where the GPX's dare not go.  One of our crew had pulled a couple keepers in a productive field but it was near roadside modern trash and power lines.  I decided to give it a go in another field just to switch things up a little and change my luck.  It was painful to keep pulling the 99% probable aluminum cans and canslaw, but was rewarded with a split Breast Plate and a NY Coat button that was hiding there in that relic detectorist's nightmare.

This year, trying out the Axiom...  Would like to find a new home for the GPX and my ATX backup and "rain" machine).  They have both served me well, but really want the clean ergonomics, settings simplicity, lighter weight and GPX level performance of the Axiom.

[JCR]

@GB_Amateur I am not a Civil War scholar. I do know a good bit about bullet casting & reloading and related history.

Most of the military small arms ammunition used during that period was factory made in cartridge form. Hollow base bullet & black powder charge done up together in nitrated paper. You would separate the bullet from the paper holding the powder, pour the powder down the barrel, cram the paper down the barrel, start & ram the bullet home, cap & ready to fire. That is why soldiers had cartridge boxes not powder horns & ball bags. Arms like the Spencer carbine were breach loaded with metallic(Copper) fixed ammunition.  I am not sure if any of the factory bullets were swaged at this stage. Perhaps some Union but Confederate was cast in gang moulds as far as I know, There was some casting done in camps also. Shotguns were still muzzle loaded with buck & ball and often used by Confederate Calvary and Artillery and some line troops. Casting lead was made up in "pigs" of around 20 lbs. These were hacked down with an axe for the melting pot.  I have dug one of these hacked up pigs in a Confederate camp along with an axe head with the eye split out.  This pig is not pure lead. I can tell by the color of the metal & it's hardness.

I'm not sure if any of the lead for Factory or field cast was purposely alloyed or not. Pure lead is not natural, it has to be refined. In nature it is often associated with Tin and Silver.  Tin is the normal bullet alloy with lead @ 60/1 to 40/1 for Black Powder guns. The Tin, whether added by nature or man is needed to lower the eutectic point of where the metal melts & flows.  Without this Tin, the mould won't fill out well & the bullet may have voids unless cast excessively hot.( about 800*F+)     My normal cast temp for 20/1 is about 700-710*F.

All this may be interesting to some, it certainly is to me but has nothing to do with finding a bullet with a detector. Pure lead or alloyed will TID almost exactly the same.

 

[Chase Goldman]

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

Nice post Hugh, and rather a general one but that's good since not everyone has the 'background' knowledge, particularly with a specific detector model.  I think I agree with everything you said (after one readthru).  I'll try to answer what is specifically directed at my post.

Yes, your drawing is consistent with my air test measurements.  I should have done a better job (with drawings or photos) than counting simply on words which sometimes can be confusing.

My intent (there's that word again ?) was to confirm/refute the measurements Daniel made with his F75, not to claim he made a mistaken measurement but rather to ask "do all of the DST models of the F75 give weaker air test performances than the original non-DST models?"  I was definitely not implying that my results (or his) would carry over to actual in-ground targets.  (You knew this but maybe others didn't....)  Also, since he used a Civil War(CW) bullet I tried as close as possible to use a similar target, although that alone was a 'weakness' of my test.  At least mine was smaller, not larger, but I think it's likely the composition is different.   BTW, no one has yet answered my question about CW bullet composition.  JCR talked about bullets in general, though.  During a Google search I did see a claim that CW bullets were pure lead, but that was from a metal detecting forum post (not our beloved DetectorProspector.com forum) so I was unsure of its veracity.

My F75 is a great backup detector to the Minelab Equinox 800 and soon it will be 3rd in line, but still not going anywhere.  I've always found it deep, but it's not (in my experience) very good at ID'ing coins nearly as deep in-ground as the Eqx 800.  Part of that is surely its single frequency (13 kHz) vs. the Eqx multifrequency (~5-6 kHz combined with ~38 kHz, with maybe one other freq in-between).  Been said before and worth saying again -- it (ditto its older cousin, Teknetics T2) is still the best ergonomic design out there that I'm aware of.  (Now I've started another detector war....  ?)

JCR thoroughly answered your question on bullet composition.   Typical caliber was .58.  There were also .69's and .54's and carbines were typically .52 but some were in smaller caliber.  Pistols were .44 or .45 or smaller.  Actual bullet ODs varied by type.  The objective was to be able to easily push the bullet down through the barrel rifling after inserting the gunpowder, so the unfired diameter was typically less than .58.  A conical cavity at the base of most minies would expand upon ignition and engage the barrel rifling.  "Cleaner" bullets had zinc inserts in the base that would expand upon firing to scrape gunpowder residue that would build up on the rifling of the barrel.

The main point I wanted to make was that translating air test results to actual in-ground performance was always tricky, but in situations where depth performance is degraded such as when mineralization is present (hot dirt) then the depth differences between the tested configurations shrink or get compressed typically in proportion the air test measurements.

Thanks for the clarifications and posting your results.

[JCR]

2 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

Daniel,

Thanks greatly for the info on that 12" coil.  First person I've heard of that has actually used it!  I was looking at it mainly for weight and reduced footprint in hot dirt.  I have a 13" Ultimate on the F75 right now.  I will look into the Super Fly, and thanks greatly for the offer to borrow and try that new coil.  I'll PM you if I decide to try it out after all.  I think I will bring the F75 to Culpeper at least with the stock and bake it off against the D2, Nox 900, and Legend on Minies.  Right now focusing on getting half way proficient on the Axiom b4 the trips down.

I will look forward to your Culpepper report, especially how the Axiom and Legend perform. I am tempted by the Axiom and have good confidence in the Legend for my hot sites. Maybe a observation by you on how these stack up against the Tarsacci.

@Daniel Tnhas inspired me to re test my Vista X, Tarsacci & Legend with their big coils on a .58 cal Minie.  Just an air test but it may give me some guidance/confidence on a couple of low mineral deep sand sites that should have more "old" there than what I have found.

[JCR]

I edited my earlier treatise to clarify & correct after reading Chase's post. I really shouldn't be posting off the top of my head when I'm busy, supposedly with work.?