Have Detector Companies Hit A Wall

[Gold Ryder]

3 hours ago, Norvic said:

Age dictates to me a need for a lightweight wireless detector that uses non-chipped lightweight mono coils. An unchipped fixed GB option 6K is on track or if ML persists with chipped coils the E2500. 

Id take 6000 battery tech, and 6000 wireless capability in a 5000 all day long.  For me Im with the others GPX pro with those features.  I dont see where coil tech is gonna advance and I love the NF Evos as do most.  So get rid of the anchor of a battery ect ect ect and Id be tickled pink. Minelab are you listening? 

[WesD]

Have to agree with Jason, that a repackaged, revamped machine on old tech, does not sound very appealing.

I like some of the ideas of more control, lighter weight, coil options...  but unless something is fundamentally improved, the actual gains on old ground probably wouldn't be too exciting.

 

 

 

 

[tboykin]

The biggest gains to be had with gold detectors lies in their ability to distinguish magnetic/ferrous from highly conductive/low impedance targets. This would be two-fold -

1. Better depth in ferrous ground conditions
2. True iron discrimination

I'm not talking about the ability to do standard discrimination, blanking/muting the threshold over ferrous. But instead the ability to balance a ferrous signal out completely, and "see through" anything with a ferrous component. This would also keep the ability to pick up nuggets covered in manganese or other ferrous minerals.

I think I remember a Minelab patent that covered this, and I would bet that the next big breakthrough will come in this type of detecting. I just hope it comes before I get too old to swing a detector!

[brogansown]

I'm a great fan of the 6000, because it has basically paid for itself.  But I've also dug a wheelbarrow load of square nails, most of them at 10 to 15 inches.  So, I agree with tboykin-iron discrimination would be a big improvement. Two days ago my brother got two nuggets with his Gold Bug 2 and me a sack full of nails and iron fragments.  But I wonder if discrimination is even possible?

An open spider web type coil to lighten the load would be good too.  Leave the Bluetooth headphones alone as they are perfect.

To think way outside the box, I need a tiny receiver in my detector to point me to my scoop that I keep losing all over the hills.  I'll glue a transmitter chip to the scoop and swing this new detector feature around my back trail to find it.  

[phrunt]

1 hour ago, brogansown said:

To think way outside the box, I need a tiny receiver in my detector to point me to my scoop that I keep losing all over the hills.  I'll glue a transmitter chip to the scoop and swing this new detector feature around my back trail to find it.  

I have a dark green scoop and if I lose it it's very hard to find, my friend has a fluro orange one, he's not losing it in a hurry, in fact I can use his scoop sticking out of his pocket as a way of seeing where he is off in the distance if I need to find him.  The bright orange really stands out in the green and brown landscape.

As for detectors hitting the wall, VLF's have, especially for prospecting, the Gold Bug 2 still excels over anything else on tiny gold but even that is a very small edge, nothing much is different between models, you could take one from any brand out with similar specs and do just as well.  If PI's were not all patented up by Minelab it would be the same with PI's.  For any company to do as well as Minelab with a PI they've had to do it by working around patents coming up with new ideas, different ways, quite the achievement.  

I'd love to see new good detectors, but I don't think performance is going to be where the changes are, much like VLF's the improvements are going to be in features and build designs, The 6000 didn't really bring anything new, the sensitivity it has the GPZ already had, but was just locked out with coils.  An SDC with larger gold timings opened up,  I'm betting they could tweak the GPZ more for a little bit more small gold performance too, being an old design now and their first release.  Surely, they didn't get everything right the first time.  PI's on the other hand, old technology tweaked and modified over decades to the point it's done. 

Discrimination could likely be improved over blacking, and incorporating Target ID's like the Algoforce has done would be great, a combination of the GPX 5000 blanking with the Algoforce Target ID would be the next step towards that.  I wish the Algoforce had the iron discrimination / DD coil support as that would really change the game for coin and jewellery hunting, a combination of it's Target ID's which are excellent along with the DD coil iron blanking although I'd prefer iron grunting audio with an option to blank.

[jasong]

4 hours ago, tboykin said:

The biggest gains to be had with gold detectors lies in their ability to distinguish magnetic/ferrous from highly conductive/low impedance targets. This would be two-fold -

1. Better depth in ferrous ground conditions
2. True iron discrimination

I'm not talking about the ability to do standard discrimination, blanking/muting the threshold over ferrous. But instead the ability to balance a ferrous signal out completely, and "see through" anything with a ferrous component. This would also keep the ability to pick up nuggets covered in manganese or other ferrous minerals.

I think I remember a Minelab patent that covered this, and I would bet that the next big breakthrough will come in this type of detecting. I just hope it comes before I get too old to swing a detector!

Gold detectors already do this to some degree. They look at both X (ferrous) and C (conductive) components of a signal as separate entities. The problem is that gold nuggets are in that unfortunate zone of overlap between X and C I think so they have both components and eliminating or reducing one could affect nugget signal. But as with everything - there are places where this is a bigger problem than other places, and more detector control would allow an experienced operator to change settings and adapt.

I think it's possible right now actually. To some degree, I think this may be an end goal of Geosense, but I'm unsure. Maybe that was an application of the patent?

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

 The 6000 didn't really bring anything new, the sensitivity it has the GPZ already had, but was just locked out with coils. 

The 6000 is more advanced than you give it credit for Simon, and I'm saying this as one of it's biggest critics. I'm guessing it's because you tend to hunt the same places and stick within small, defined areas. Most of the positives I've found relate to using it as an exploration machine. 

The 6000 blows away the 7000 in conductive ground (salt), even with a 10" X Coil on the GPZ. Yet, it retains the sensitivity of the GPZ with the 10". I can explore salty ground 4x faster with the 6000 than I can with the GPZ due to both it's performance in salt as well as the weight reduction. It's far more sensitive than a 5000 with an 11" round too.

Also, I'm not ready to sell Geosense short or underestimate it just yet. I have documented well my issues with what I perceive it to be doing and how it can negatively affect a detectorist without them even realizing it, but I also still use Auto+ almost entirely, it's just too convenient when covering tons of different grounds types while exploring. When in variable ground, it does well adapting and letting me concentrate on other things besides fiddling with settings - it saves tons of time for me and I expect the next iteration will be better.

This stuff here is why I said earlier they really need to get exploration prospectors on the testing crew. Because that's exactly the strength of the machines like the 6000 and they need to start getting input from people that can point out things that I feel a lot of current tests may underestimate if not miss entirely. 

[Aureous]

I think Steve hit the nail right on the head.... aside from the 'Detector tech hitting the wall' question, Minelab, as the world leaders in detector technology, are slowly failing....even if they dont see it. Competition is here with much more to come. The GPZ7000 replacement has been sitting on the bench for a couple years now and without the actual 'hitting the ball outta the park'  analogy coming true, then all the small, incremental improvements aint gonna be enough to sway the serious purchaser into ditching their Legacy GPX, 6000 or 7000 machines. As Minelab's own motto goes 'Performance is Everything' and this actual, serious performance increase will be the ONLY thing that keeps ML at the top of the heap. Not only do the serious guys buy a lot of detectors, but their in-field results drive sales. Nothing sells like success....

[Aureous]

3 hours ago, brogansown said:

To think way outside the box, I need a tiny receiver in my detector to point me to my scoop that I keep losing all over the hills.  I'll glue a transmitter chip to the scoop and swing this new detector feature around my back trail to find it.  

No need for anything fancy, just a short length of shock cord tied onto the handle of your scoop and a holster. Ive used this method of scoop retention for over 20 years now... aint lost once since 😉

[RONS DETECTORS MINELAB]

1 hour ago, jasong said:

I think it's possible right now actually. To some degree, I think this may be an end goal of Geosense, but I'm unsure. Maybe that was an application of the patent?

Minelabs definition of GeoSense-PI™ technology analyses and responds to ground signals with great clarity and precision, so you can detect in difficult environments once thought undetectable. It rapidly suppresses unwanted signals via three overlapping feedback systems for superfast detection of even the tiniest gold pieces.
 

Sounds like Minelab did improve on the 6000 handling with Geosense over the previous DVT & SETA systems by adding a third feedback system. Maybe they can add more feedback systems to even better remove more unwanted signals.
 

Still not overly sure how it works as it does not handle the more mineralized ground conditions we have here. It works more like the salt/gold timings on the 5000 as it can handle conductive ground but will still hear the more mineralized ground conditions.

[phrunt]

Are you sure the 3rd one isn't auto sensitivity adjustment?