Manticore Center Line Question...

[steveg]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:10 PM, abenson said:

I can tell you for absolute certain on a 6" deep clad dime I dug today, you wouldn't have heard it running horseshoe on. There was an old galvanized sprinkler pipe in the ground at a park I was hunting today. I past over the target in the disc pattern I made with iron audio off and got a clear 78-80 ID and audio, target trace showed a line top of the screen down to the center line. But when I went to open screen the audio got funky and the ID dropped to single digits and trace splattered all over. When I pinpointed I got nothing but a long signal running away from where I got the original signal both directions. So I went back to the disc pattern and got the same dime like ID. I thought this sounds to good to be the pipe. I ended up pinpointing the target by crossing the target at 30 degree angles from the pipe and drew an X, dug down and sure enough there was a dime at about 6".

abenson -- this part REALLY puzzles me, for many reasons.  Wow.

For ONE thing, here's part of what puzzles me...

It is (was?) my understanding that target trace in the MC SHOULD be the same (when the machine is running in a particular mode, with particular recovery speed, etc.) NO MATTER where you set your disc (if any) or your ferrous limits.  In other words, the target plot is the target plot, period...the only thing disc. or ferrous limits affect, is the AUDIO REPORT of that target -- i.e. whether you hear the target OR NOT (disc), or if you hear the target report with conductive tones, or with ferrous tones (limits).  In other words, the target will plot the same way on the screen NO MATTER WHAT, you are only affecting the AUDIO OUTPUT of the target, when changing disc. settings or limits settings.

HOWEVER, what you are saying, is that when you switched from open screen (no disc. applied/all-metal mode), into your disc. pattern, that not only did your AUDIO change drastically (which it should), but...

1.  your TARGET TRACE drastically changed...

2.  the pinpoint of the target drastically changed, and...

3.  the VDI of the target drastically changed? 

This, based on my understanding, should NOT be the case.  Audio reporting changes?  ABSOLUTELY.  But changes in how the target plots on the screen?  Changes in the target's PINPOINT BEHAVIOR?  Change in reported VDI?  Based on my understanding, that should NOT be happening, but you are saying that it IS?

Oh my.  As I ponder this, this suggests to me that in the sequence of events within the processing that occurs with MC, discrimination is being applied FIRST, in the "order of things," with respect to target signal processing.  THEREFORE, everything downstream is affected (and in a POSITIVE WAY)! 

So, in essence, it sounds like what you are saying is happening, is this:

Say you have a nail and a coin side-by-side, which in "open screen" (no disc.) are too close together to get two totally separate signals.  Instead, you get a "blend" of the two targets -- tonally, VDI-wise, and target trace (a "smear" so to speak), and, a rather "long" pinpoint readout of the combined target.  BUT -- it SOUNDS like, from what you are saying, that IF YOU EXIT ALL-METAL MODE (via the horseshoe button), and enter DISC mode, then, the discriminated target to some degree DISAPPEARS.  It is NOT THERE, as far as the machine is concerned, as it processes the signal downstream after disc. is applied.  In other words, in my nail/coin example, assuming your disc. was set such that the nail is discriminated, then the machine essentially doesn't see the nail when it generates the target trace plot, it doesn't see the nail when it assigns an audio tone, it doesn't see the nail when it calculates a VDI number, and it doesn't see the nail EVEN WHEN YOU ENGAGE PINPOINT MODE???

I cannot imagine this to be the case, and I am trying really hard to keep my skepticism at bay -- because I actually trust what you are saying/observing...but I'm really trying to figure out how this can be the case.  If this IS INDEED the way the MC functions, this is an incredible (to me), and amazing (to me) technological leap, and is a brain-shattering, big-time eye-opening revelation for me that would result in an IMPERATIVE, start-from-the-ground-up complete overhaul of how I understand, and use, the Manticore...

This needs to be confirmed.

Wow...

Steve

[GB_Amateur]

42 minutes ago, steveg said:

Oh my.  As I ponder this, this suggests to me that in the sequence of events within the processing that occurs with MC, discrimination is being applied FIRST, in the "order of things," with respect to target signal processing.  THEREFORE, everything downstream is affected (and in a POSITIVE WAY)!

Is this in any way parallel to what the Deus 2 does, setting a discrimination level independent(?) of notching?  (I may be way off base with this, never having had an XP detector and thus not understanding its language...).

I also wonder about analog vs. digital processing.  With a Tesoro (maybe not all of them...) the discrimination completely silences a target whose overall 'conductivity' is well below the discriminator threshold.  You never know its there.  With the Equinox, with notching (for example silencing the negative VDI's) if you get a mixed non-ferrous/ferrous signal it makes choppy/herky-jerky non-ferrous tone(s) as you swing over the target(s) -- and it's especially noticeable if you set an audible background volume threshold tone.

I'm probably oversimplifying or even just mis-representing what is really going on....

[steveg]

GB_Amateur,

YES.  A "choppy/herky-jerky" non-ferrous tone, is in my mind what SHOULD happen on such a target when you engage disc/notch.

Let's say you have that "nail/coin" target I mentioned above.  With open screen, and with appropriate limits set, you should hear a mix of non-ferrous and ferrous tones, let's say 50/50 mix.  So, when you discriminate out the iron ID portion (and thus the ferrous tones dissapear), then you SHOULD hear the 50% non-ferrous tones, but since you are only hearing "50%" of the conglomerated target, you are missing the other 50%, and thus is sounds "choppy."

THAT is what I would expect.  But this does NOT seem to be what abenson is suggesting.  He literally said there was a 6" deep dime that he could NOT HEAR, when running open screen, the target giving single-digit VDI, and with a completely splattered target trace, but once he applied disc, a perfect 80-81 ID showed up, with a completely different target trace, AND with good, clear/solid, proper high tone...and, if I understood him correctly, even a DIFFERENT PINPOINT RESULT?

This is really frying my brain here...

Steve

[BigSkyGuy]

Could this be due to use of "open gate" on the MC vs "closed gate" on the Equinox? Tom mentions polyphonic audio as a new feature of the MC, which appears to mean that more than one tone can be heard at once. By silencing one tone you enhance the other. On the nox you hear bits and pieces of each tone at different times rather than a blending of tones. Not sure how the target trace works though. It sounds like it may be presenting the audio in a visual form rather than presenting independent information, at least in part.

[BigSkyGuy]

42 minutes ago, steveg said:

Let's say you have that "nail/coin" target I mentioned above.  With open screen, and with appropriate limits set, you should hear a mix of non-ferrous and ferrous tones, let's say 50/50 mix.  So, when you discriminate out the iron ID portion (and thus the ferrous tones dissapear), then you SHOULD hear the 50% non-ferrous tones, but since you are only hearing "50%" of the conglomerated target, you are missing the other 50%, and thus is sounds "choppy."

My response above was with regard to this part of Steveg's post. I am still a rookie on naviagating this site!

[Chase Goldman]

1 hour ago, GB_Amateur said:

Is this in any way parallel to what the Deus 2 does, setting a discrimination level independent(?) of notching?  (I may be way off base with this, never having had an XP detector and thus not understanding its language...).

To a certain extent this IS what discrimination does on Deus 2.  That's why I advocate use of discrimination (and highly reactive pitch audio) because it helps to differentiate ferrous from non-ferrous in the presence of both and helps to keep ferrous down averaging from affecting the non-ferrous TDI.  It's not full proof but it does help and if you want to not hear the iron, simply turn off iron volume.

If Manticore is indeed doing something similar, then that would be a definite feature enhancement beyond the Nox's discrimination implementation that peaks my interest in Manticore.

Will be interested in how this unfolds.

[abenson]

Probably didn't give enough information on the first post about this and it might seem a bit more clear cut that it really is. To address pinpoint first, there is no difference in the way the target pinpointed with disc on vs disc off. Second, when I run an open screen I have my ferrous volume turned up quite a bit and that is probably one reason it's harder to tell a comingled target for me. So I should probably turn that down. But when disc is implemented I only hear the targets that are in the open screen and I would say they sound more clipped than they do studdery like they do on the Equinox. Look at Rattlehead's video and you can see how it acts. Third, Audio was all over the place running open screen 1 region all tones and the ID was mostly high single digits with an occasional high number spike. Disc on cleaned those ID's up to mostly 78-80. Possibly could make that sound better by running prospecting audio.  Finally, the target trace when open is is quite a bit more active than when running a disc pattern. From what I can remember, on this particular target when the screen was open I had a big blob that was almost S shaped that went from left lower limits, smeared across the middle line over to where the dime ID was and then straight up to the right top of upper limits. There were also various other small black dots in a few places on the screen. When the disc pattern was implemented I clearly remember it changing to two separate traces, one in the left lower limits and one that went from the top of the screen to the center line at about where a dime would ID. Galvanized pipe is steel with a zinc coating so kind of a unique target setup here.

Decided to add a drawing of kind of what I saw.

 

[strick]

1 hour ago, abenson said:

when I run an open screen I have my ferrous volume turned up quite a bit and that is probably one reason it's harder to tell a comingled target for me. So I should probably turn that down.

I've been running it down to were I can just here it comfortably...the ferrous audio  can get insanely loud on that machine I think I've been running it around 3-4 if I remember right for my ears...

strick  

[schoolofhardNox]

1 hour ago, strick said:

I've been running it down to were I can just here it comfortably...the ferrous audio  can get insanely loud on that machine I think I've been running it around 3-4 if I remember right for my ears...

strick  

From what I remember from the Equinox, that iron audio is not just iron targets but ground noise as well. I kind of wished they didn't combine iron targets and ground noise together on the Manticore as well. It clutters up the audio a lot. I hope I'm remembering that correctly?

[steveg]

3 hours ago, abenson said:

Probably didn't give enough information on the first post about this and it might seem a bit more clear cut that it really is. To address pinpoint first, there is no difference in the way the target pinpointed with disc on vs disc off. Second, when I run an open screen I have my ferrous volume turned up quite a bit and that is probably one reason it's harder to tell a comingled target for me. So I should probably turn that down. But when disc is implemented I only hear the targets that are in the open screen and I would say they sound more clipped than they do studdery like they do on the Equinox. Look at Rattlehead's video and you can see how it acts. Third, Audio was all over the place running open screen 1 region all tones and the ID was mostly high single digits with an occasional high number spike. Disc on cleaned those ID's up to mostly 78-80. Possibly could make that sound better by running prospecting audio.  Finally, the target trace when open is is quite a bit more active than when running a disc pattern. From what I can remember, on this particular target when the screen was open I had a big blob that was almost S shaped that went from left lower limits, smeared across the middle line over to where the dime ID was and then straight up to the right top of upper limits. There were also various other small black dots in a few places on the screen. When the disc pattern was implemented I clearly remember it changing to two separate traces, one in the left lower limits and one that went from the top of the screen to the center line at about where a dime would ID. Galvanized pipe is steel with a zinc coating so kind of a unique target setup here.

Decided to add a drawing of kind of what I saw.

 

abenson,

THANK YOU for the additional information. 

1.  OK -- so NO change on target pinpoint, for this target, when disc. was on OR off.  That is what I would have expected, as pinpoint is, I thought, a mode WITHOUT discrimination, such that EVEN IF you have targets discriminated, that should NOT be reflected once you enter pinpoint mode.  So, that's good.  One "potentially mind-blowing" thing has been clarified!

2.  Next, you said audio was "all over the place," in open screen, but when you switched to disc, you would get "clipped" high tones, which -- again -- makes sense to me.  Sounds like, as would be expected, you are hearing the PORTION of the co-mingled target that was the non-ferrous high tone, and eliminating (via disc.) the low-tone-generating aspects of this co-mingled target.    OK, so I think this makes sense under my "current" understanding/paradigm, and nothing "mind-blowing" here.  Good...

3.  You said in open screen, the mostly single-digit VDI with an occasional high-VDI spike, changed to mostly 78 to 80 VDI when disc was engaged.  Again, this basically makes sense to me, as -- just like the audio -- you "took away" the higher percentage of low VDIs being generated by the zinc pipe, leaving the machine with only one choice...which was to display any VDI it could generate that was in the accepted range (as 78-80 was).  I think the only part here that surprises me, is that it was ABLE to generate 78 to 80 VDI -- i.e. very accurate dime ID, EVEN THOUGH that pipe was there, and COULD HAVE (and would have, I'd think, on many machines) biased the dime ID lower, i.e. more of a "mixed" ID or "average" ID of the two targets.  Sounds like the MC did a great job of separating, showing you two distinct targets.  But, it took your use of disc. to make it MORE CLEAR that there WERE two targets.

4.  Finally, the target trace.  This one remains the most puzzling to me.  WHAT HAPPENED to all of those traces, between the low-VDI "blob" lower left, and the high-VDI blob on the right-hand side of the screen?  Yes, with no disc, things like EMI, ground noise, etc. can show up as small, brief, transient dots all over the screen.  So, I get why turning on disc would clean some of that up (since SOME of those random plots/dots would be "discriminated").  BUT, that doesn't explain that "west-to-east" or "left-to-right" strip of target plots across the center of the screen DISAPPEARING, apparently, when you entered disc. mode.  Again, those plots should show up EITHER WAY; the only difference should be if, and then how, they report audibly (based on your disc. and limits settings).  This part is the primary thing I have yet to reconcile...but...perhaps it could be explained by slight "sweep angle" changes, slightly not centered over the target in the same way, etc., when you switched from open screen, to disc. mode?  

I think bottom line, is that my understanding/current paradigm is still correct, such that I don't think anything is happening here that cannot, at least generally, be explained as falling into the realm of what we have understood in terms of how MC operates.

WITH THAT SAID, abenson, your post STILL illustrates (which was probably your original point) that you are learning some interesting ways to effectively use MC's discrimination (and "iron mask" as you were noting as a hold-over term from FBS days) and its limits settings, to "clean up" the audio and the VDI when there are mixed-target scenarios, so that the "good" can shine through more easily, instead of being partially drowned out by the "bad."  Given what seem to be very good "separation" capabilities on this unit, it makes things like this possible, apparently...

And finally, I hope none of this comes across in any way "offensive" or as though I am "challenging" you.  I really am just trying to understand in a very detailed way, AND I am an "external" processor, so I figure things out using words, LOL!  And so, when my words come out, it's all out there...everything my brain is thinking, ends up "spoken" (or, on the page, in this case)!  So, my point is that this is truly me just trying to wrap my brain around this machine, and trying to test --  against my current understanding -- all of the things that folks I trust are witnessing/experiencing as we all learn this machine together...

Good stuff abenson.

Thanks!

Steve