Big Five Now The Big Four - First Texas No Longer A Player?

[jasong]

On 7/20/2023 at 12:30 AM, dig4gold said:

The Minelab posts were most likely the number of disgruntled buyers of the GPX 6000 & its issues & Minelabs total lack of engaging.

D4G

Gadgetry/mods generates a lot of discussion too. The main gold section is a heck of a lot more active when there are interesting things to use and test out. I'd say there were probably 10 times more X Coils posts than 6000 issues posts, with all the consistent releases they did. Starting with the coils themselves, then moving to spiral windings, then releasing the supposedly impossible smaller coils like the 8", then moving to concentrics and all the different sizes of those. There was just a ton to test out, compare, show finds with, and talk about.

The 6000 is frankly a very boring detector to discuss once you move past it's problems, hence the focus of discussion largely centering around it's issues and not much else. 

Another data point that shows Minelab really doesn't care about it's customers, they actively suppress the sorts of stuff that tend to form communities in other product sectors, it's all about $ and nothing else. And it shoots itself in the foot because of it, creates needless negative feedback, and makes some people dislike them instead of generating fans. 

[TC-AZ]

On 7/11/2023 at 4:46 PM, Steve Herschbach said:

I said U.S. perspective. Certainly might be different elsewhere, with brands not even mentioned being premier in other markets. And I’m talking about what is selling new, not what people are using per se. There are still people using White’s but they are a part of the past and not what will drive the technology forward.

Based on total sales worldwide Garrett is still a major brand, even if they are missing from some local markets. They sell far more in Europe than you might think. Still, I’m curious. So in the UK what brand would you put in Garrett’s place? Minelab, Nokta, XP, and ?????

I agree with Steve. What will get us (White's users) moving forward in the new technology? It totally depends on YOU. I hear, talk and read how we will use our detectors until the day we die. It seems that it is driven by a new generation of detectorist's. We older guys and gals get into a comfort zone where we are happy and don't like change.

I am 65 and still willing to learn new things especially detectors. in my local club there are some that still have flip phones and can't or won't even text. And some members that don't want to bother with email so they want for you to call or mail the newsletter.  TC-AZ 

[Jeff Kelley]

On 7/13/2023 at 2:16 PM, Mirda said:

V3i was introduced in 2009, so it had to be in development a few years before. It also means, that there is probably nobody around, that knows the current code. It was made with coding language and tools available at that time. They are very probably not updated anymore -> they would need to completely rewrite whole codebase to be able to use modern processors and development tools. If there are routines in a very low language, like assembler, there is not many people able to decipher it.

The V3i was in development for about five years before release.  The bulk of it was written in C++ and would be compatible with modern processors, compilers, and development systems.   The issues would be with hardware that has gone obsolete along with the opportunities that new technology provides that you just would not want to miss in a new machine.

For example, the processor has built-in hardware acceleration for a filter but you cannot find that anymore.  Could do that in software because processors are much faster now.   Higher resolution displays are now available – would not want to pass that opportunity by.   The system is split with analog and audio in the battery box and the main processor in the pod – would want to fix that.  Wireless audio is another area where technology has grown enough to suggest a redo.  The V3i has some ground tracking that could be improved and detecting in harsh ground runs into limits.  Steve found a noise issue somewhere in Alaska that was never figured out.  So, some improvements in performance would also need to be addressed.

You could patch up each of these things in turn and ship something, but I would certainly start over.  And if the original developers would start over, it is pretty certain that Garrett would make a fresh start if they wanted to do something similar.  The value is within some of the techniques which are still applicable and combining them with more modern practices.

The developers for the V3i are not employed by Garett.   John Plautz has passed on, Anne Kelley is not working on detectors, Carl is at First Texas, and I followed him there.  Garrett has a design purchased that they can work with to figure it out, but First Texas has access to the designers. 

Either company could resurrect the V3i.  The question is if they would want to.  How many customers want to be empowered with many settings and how many would be intimidated?  This makes it a niche market within a niche market. 

What I would be interested in knowing is what features of the V3i would make it relevant today?  Would it truly be the best VLF in Garrett’s lineup?  Does it beat the Equinox and Legend?  Certainly nice to be hearing, but is this true?   What is the good, bad, or ugly about it?

[Steve Herschbach]

14 hours ago, Jeff Kelley said:

What I would be interested in knowing is what features of the V3i would make it relevant today?  Would it truly be the best VLF in Garrett’s lineup?  Does it beat the Equinox and Legend?  Certainly nice to be hearing, but is this true?   What is the good, bad, or ugly about it?

Hi Jeff, thanks for stopping in! In case people do not know Jeff was a key player in the V3i - like really key.

The V3i was Equinox before Equinox, and I tried to get White’s to understand what they had on their hands. I in fact pretty much described the Equinox by asking that a V3i be reimagined in a simplified pod on rod configuration.

The part I miss most is that gorgeous Spectra display, far better than anything Minelab has done in my opinion. Keeping the key ability to customize the display for single and multiple frequency would be good. What could be lost are a lot of settings tweaks and interactions that go way over the head of a lot of people. Ground balance needed improvement. But mainly as far as tuning just stick with the standard stuff.

I kind of wish I’d have kept my last V3i but after going back and forth several times decided the DFX gets along better with my Bigfoot coil. The DFX also fills a role with me as a machine that is not so hyped up bloody sensitive to tiny foil and other minuscule trash like many of the modern machines with their jacked up gain.

Again, thanks for your commentary.

[TampaBayBrad]

On 8/1/2023 at 7:19 AM, Badger-NH said:

The CZ20/21 was designed for diving. Awesome performance in salty wet sand but heavy and awkward for beach hunting.  I don't understand why they never made a lightweight beach version. That's where the money is.

I belt mounted mine which made it VERY light. ?

[Sinclair]

Over here in my part of Germany, the "serious" detectorists seem to use Minelab / XP exclusively, with Nokta strongly catching up.

I sometimes see beginners with a blend of entry-level Garrett / Teknetics / Fisher / Quest machines - but even those seem to fade in favour of Nokta / Minelab / XP lower priced models.

Imho, the Nox opened up a whole new era in many ways - not only MF / SMF-wise.

[Steve Herschbach]

I’d certainly agree all the buzz on the forum for some time has boiled down to Minelab, XP, and Nokta. It’s really become a Big Three instead of a Big Five or even the Big Four. As you note serious VLF users are most often swinging an Equinox or Deus, with Manticore and Legend now in the mix. On the PI side Minelab long ago crushed the competition. Fisher has not had a serious release in over a decade, and if Garrett wants to get serious attention again they need to move much faster than they have been. Anyone without a top tier SMF is essentially no longer part of any conversation. People here give lip service to buying American, but fact is that performance is all that matters, and U.S. manufacturers if anything engender anger and scorn when brought up in conversation amongst serious users. The main takeaway for me from this thread is that it is time to retire the concept of a Big Five and recognize that there has been a consolidation take place. What we really have now are the Big Three making all the waves.

 

[Bill (S. CA)]

You make a very valid point, Steve, about the Big 5 being reduced to the Big 3.  Despite all of us wishing something different, First Texas is no longer a player.  Garrett continues to be mystifying.  The Apex seemed like a first step into multi-frequency but whatever momentum was generated by it is long gone.  They clearly have the R & D muscle since they developed the Axiom to come up with something innovative.  Hard to anticipate what is next for them.

Nokta is another company that puzzles me.  Yes, the Legend is a good detector.  But it was designed to match/exceed the Equinox 800.  Since the Legend all i see from them is a continuing release of low-to-mid level detectors, so many i don't even know what makes each one different.  For me, Nokta has to take a shot at something new to move the needle, like XP did.  Otherwise i think they may be seen as just a copycat company, only trying to release models that compete with older detectors.  That would be a shame since I admire their tenacity and customer service.

That leaves us with Minelab and XP.  The current crop of Minelab detectors (900 and Manticore) feel like filler detectors to me.  By this I mean that they have tweaked their current platform while finalizing their next technology release.  Historically this has been their pattern.

XP is the company that really intrigues me.  The Deus II was such a surprise that one has to wonder if XP has a similar big bang to release sometime next year.

Then again, what do I know?  I've been hunting with a Tesore Sidewinder for the last two months!

Bill 

 

[rled2005]

1 hour ago, Bill (S. CA) said:

You make a very valid point, Steve, about the Big 5 being reduced to the Big 3.  Despite all of us wishing something different, First Texas is no longer a player.  Garrett continues to be mystifying.  The Apex seemed like a first step into multi-frequency but whatever momentum was generated by it is long gone.  They clearly have the R & D muscle since they developed the Axiom to come up with something innovative.  Hard to anticipate what is next for them.

Nokta is another company that puzzles me.  Yes, the Legend is a good detector.  But it was designed to match/exceed the Equinox 800.  Since the Legend all i see from them is a continuing release of low-to-mid level detectors, so many i don't even know what makes each one different.  For me, Nokta has to take a shot at something new to move the needle, like XP did.  Otherwise i think they may be seen as just a copycat company, only trying to release models that compete with older detectors.  That would be a shame since I admire their tenacity and customer service.

That leaves us with Minelab and XP.  The current crop of Minelab detectors (900 and Manticore) feel like filler detectors to me.  By this I mean that they have tweaked their current platform while finalizing their next technology release.  Historically this has been their pattern.

XP is the company that really intrigues me.  The Deus II was such a surprise that one has to wonder if XP has a similar big bang to release sometime next year.

Then again, what do I know?  I've been hunting with a Tesore Sidewinder for the last two months!

Bill 

 

I still have and will keep my 3 Tesoro’s due to their simplicity and no nonsense  operation. (Lobo ST, El Dorado, and Silver uMax). They’re also great to have around for other family members to use on occasion.