Tom_in_CA

I wish he/we had the liberty to return 10x, to determine "flukes" vs on-going-norm. I know you're of the opinion that the susceptibility to EMI has NOT changed (ie.: become more vulnerable) with the V3. But seems that others, on forum chit-chat, are not agreeing with this. Seems that others say it makes the Nox more vulnerable. But if you're right, and they're wrong, it's doubtful my friend will want to go back "10 times to confirm they're not 10 flukes in a row". Because he's sickened after yesterday's results. He probably hates the place by now . Doh ! *At best* I can maybe get him to some other turf for some more re-matches/experiments. But truth be told, he might simply be more into relicky sites and demolition. He's not in love with turf as much as you and I enjoy turf (the strategy, the challenge, etc....) No. No one has. But then again, I've only hunted turf a few times with any Nox users. And each time the "spankings" could be written off to other factors. Also, my primary hunting partner (also a Nox fan) is simply not into turf. He's a relicky-site guy (stage stops, etc...). But on the other hand, he will swear up and down that the Nox will be superior in turf. But I can't drag him out to "show me". Because A) he's not a turf hunter, and B) he would summarily write-off any differences to skill-level in that venue. Both are understandable excuses. So the jury is still out. Dan, If you think the SE and the II are identical in ability, then you are breaking ranks with many long-time respected Explorer experts. Like our mutual friend Ron. The SE takes more coaxing to get a TID. Whereas the II tends to get to the hint on the "first pass over it". We can agree to disagree on this. And no, I don't doubt your tallies. So-too is there no doubt someone out there with an Ace 250, who can likewise boast astounding results. But we both know that we would not attribute it to the machine. We'd attribute it to skill of user , and locations of hunts. So I say that I don't disagree with your observation of Nox vs SE in turf. But that's not because I think "the Nox beats Exp. in turf". It's because I have never much cared for the SE. But as you say, it's no use us debating this. We can agree to disagree. All I can say is, that if you a) maintain that yesterday was a fluke (which perhaps it was), and b) On another day, the interference won't be there, and c) that if Dan were there "on those non-fluke days", that the Nox can spank an Exp. II, then : This is totally flying in the face of our 3 to 4 attempts here. And while it's true that on those earlier trips he was a Nox-rookie, yet : We were doing flagged comparisons. NOT "end tally counts". So when persons are doing flagged signal comparisons, ..... where they have ample time to try every trick in the book over known spots, then : NO amount of added time/experience is going to change that result. But let's cut the chase: This could be an isolated type of mineralization and/or EMI (that exists 100% of the time) that is unique to that zone. If you disagree, then : Git your b*tt up here 🙂 It's only a 6 hr. drive 🙂 PS: Also I forgot to note on the previous post that there was a singular half-block section yesterday, where all of the sudden my explorer was stuttering/static as well. But I noticed when I walked a bit further away, it started purring again. Versus my Nox friend, who had stutter NO MATTER WHERE HE WALKED.

Dan you say : "...this was before the V3 update had come out." I'm glad you added this final sentence to your paragraph. Because for a moment, I thought you were going to try to say that this duel-result would-be-the-same, regardless. But since you added that last sentence : Then I'll hold-open the hope that my buddy's horrible results were the result of the V3. But this doesn't solve the dispute/debate on whether or not he can spank an Explorer, with NO v3 update. All we can do is for him to take off the v3, and do a re-match. But at this point, it's sort of pointless. As we are both now assuming that this area, is *simply* not suitable for the Nox, no matter WHAT the settings, and no matter WHO the user is. If you disagree, and think the Nox can spank the Explorer II here, then bring it up 🙂 And I don't doubt your personal tallies improved when you made the switch. But .... I'm not so sure that the SE is the same as the II. They had differences, as you know. You say : ".....So, your Explorer was purring like a kitten the whole time during your hunt? Not a hint of EMI? What sensitivity were you using on your Exp? Yes. Stable. But I suspect there was interference below the audio level. Because sometimes a 6" deep wheatie or silver was "tough signals". And as you know, 6" is a cake-walk for explorers of any incarnation. But on the other hand, no, no audible chatter. My sens. level on the II was 18. I'm not sure if that corresponds with the scale of the SE pro or not. You say: ".... At most of these sites I’ve been hunting with my Nox, I’ve managed to pull many more silvers/wheats." With this quote, I can imagine my friend "pulling his hair out". It is what I predicted that , sure as heck, someone (with the V3 update, no less) could/would say "You're not doing it right", or "you must have the wrong settings", and "you need more practice". Trust me: For a good 5 hrs he tried everything in the book. And to the extent that he could make one of my signals come in, yet, that was the moment that when he went to swing anywhere else, a symphony of chatter, that is indistinguishable from the signal he just coaxed out of my flagged spot. Doh ! So you would NOT be able to convince him that ANY Nox user (not even the mighty Dan) is going to magically come by and get a totally different result. I would love to see my friend's face, when he reads this quote of yours. You say : ".... I doubt it...EMI is the variable!! It can be downright nasty at times, then somewhat manageable in the same area you’re hunting...." This is true. There are times, at certain sites, where even something like my Exp. II just suffers, for seemingly no reason. Then another trip, I get deepies that present no problems. Thus, sure, it's *possible* that it was just a fluke night. Like where someone in a nearby apartment left their blender or router/transmitter on, or the Muni bus line was doing electrical upgrades, blah blah. Who knows ? But .... at what point does anyone eliminate this as an excuse ? 3 trips ? 4 trips ? 10 trips ? At SOME point, 2 people are going to have to conclude : "This machine sucks here", and "This machine will not spank an Exp. here". Yes this is not representative of all turf. It could be a fluke (and exist 100% of the time there). So to be fair, my friend and I know a park in nearby Oakland, which is flush with easy pickens. Albeit just 1940s/50s wheaties/silver (ugly orange wheaties, and common newer silver). Perhaps my friend would want a rematch there. And in my experience, this park more accurately mimics low-rise anytown-USA type turf. But better yet: Get your duff up here ! haha You say : " .... Has there ever been a time at a site you’ve hunted where the EMI rendered your Explorer useless (even to you, being a master level Explorer hunter)? " I've been in places where I suspected that I was "not in tune" with the place. Like ... I can't find silver to save my life. Might be the machine (the Emi) at levels below audible. Or it could be my personal mood. But @ a single location, a freak event happened at a relicky site : I started getting chatter, no matter what settings I chose. Thus I assumed I must have a frayed chord. I hiked back to the truck, and made some coil swaps. But the problem continued. So I thought: "Must be in the sun-ray probe connections". So I hiked the long way again, and swapped out the probe. TO NO AVAIL. Thus yes, something had happened on that singular night, that never before , and never since then, has repeated itself in that spot. Hence, yes, I know what you're saying. But at the spot in question for this topic : It's an ongoing thing. And only got worse once he put the v3 on there.

Hey gang, a buddy and I got back from a turf hunt in San Francisco yesterday. Him with his Nox 800 , with 3.0 update, and over a year now of experience under his belt. And me, with my Exp . II. In the past (10 months / year ago), I had spanked him on this section of turf @ 3x to 4x to 1 in oldies. But we wrote that off to a variety of factors : 1) He was new to the Nox at that time 2) he was still experimenting with settings, 3) The nox appeared to suffer after 7am-ish, when the "city comes to life" (EMI) in the downtown-ish area we're in. 4) That Tom was more familiar with this particular turf and type-sounds to chase, etc.... But now that he's had a year under his belt, and now that he has the 3.0 (which he'd read has claims to be able to better combat electrical noise interference ?) we went out for another re-match on this stretch. This time he had nothing but issues with the Nox 😞 Even starting at 1am (when the city is "sleeping"), his machine wouldn't settle down. Even dropping the sens down to rock-bottom lowest, you could STILL hear the un-ending chatter 😞 When it came time to trade off flagged signals : I would show him various wheaties and/or silver. He could only pick them up if he increased his sens. to moderately high levels. Which, of course, left him helpless the moment he swung anywhere else (ie.: chatter and beeps everywhere else too) . Hence the duel went horribly. The poor guy was shut down (he hadn't taken his SE pro for this trip). And on the previous trips last year, although he experienced chatter after 7am or so, yet this time was totally worse. The chatter was 2x as bad, and it existed no-matter-the-time of day. So all he could deduce was that it had something to do with the 3.0 It didn't matter that he switched to multi-mode (such that he's not opting for any of the new features that 3.0 offers). It is just something ingrained / hard-wired into the new update, that has now affected this EMI issue vulnerability. Final tallies were : Him : 4 wheaties and a silver roosie. Me: 24 wheaties, an IH, & 7 silvers (6 silver dimes (mercs/roosies) and a war nickel). To be fair, we *could* conclude that these horrible 3.0 results *only* manifest itself at *just* this one location. We could try other parks in low-rise districts that don't have the cell/radio/electrical/EMI issue. And to be fair : He kicked my B*tt , with his 800, earlier this year in a ghost-townsy iron-ridden gold-rush location. He was showing me signals that I had to admit I wouldn't have registered on -my-own. Yet on his machine, they were coming in with "room-to-spare". Yes, the Exp. II is not renowned for target-see-through in iron ridden situations. That's already a given. A good turf machine, yes. But a good iron-ridden ghost-town machine : No.

try fiddling with your swing speed over suspected bottle caps. Ie.: a momentarily faster clip. And then do the same for coins. You might be able to discern the caps vs the coins by the way they react to slower vs faster swing over them.

Dan - Raphis is a rock-star legend in CA md'ing circles. He can not escape his groupies ! MMuuuhhhahahaha

Pandemic ? Ah c'mon, is that the best excuse you can come up with ? Tsk Tsk. 🤣

Thank you for alerting me to that. I wasn't aware he was posting here, as that's not a sub-forum I'd clicked. Dan is so-far-advanced in turf hunting skill, that .... rumor has it that he's not really human. He's a robot, haha.

Dan, It's good to see you posting on an md'ing forum ! Welcome . Your skill in junky park turf is legendary in CA ! As for the discussion of Nox vs Explorers : I know you had the SE, in the incarnation lineup of Explorers. And not sure if you're aware or not, but the SE suffered some criticism of being lesser depth than the other explorers in the evolution lineup. This was because when it evolved to the SE , one of the things Minelab attempted, was to speed up the processing, as you know. So as to be better in trash. A noble effort. HOWEVER, it had the subtle effect of lesser depth. Or at least TID at depth. Here's an example : I once bought an SE JUST TO GET THE INLINE PROBE off of it. And I decided to try out the SE on the wet salt beach, after we'd had some erosion. I wandered around for awhile and heard a few nails, but passed them. Eventually I finally got a waffling signal that took some "persuasion" to determine that it might be conductive. I dug a dime that .... IMHO *should* have been a bolder signal, at the depth I'd just dug it at. So on a hunch I doubled back to several "nails" that I'd passed. Lo & behold THEY TOO were deep coins. Hmmm. It was taking a lot of "persuasion" to make them hint at conductive. Otherwise, they were in the nail-grunt zone of audio. I posted my observations, and several people concurred that the SE does, in fact, get this criticism . So whereas the II will tend to get the TID on the first swing over the target, yet the SE requires more persuasion. Hence in effect, less depth. So when you say your Nox is beating the SE in turf for you, I wouldn't dispute this outcome. That's because I question the SE in the first place. HOWEVER : I'd love to see you go head to head with a proficient turf Exp II user. If you've got a weekend to come up this direction , there's a certain turf zone in SF where I've spanked a Nox user @ 2x to 1x on oldies. And trust me, it's NOT just chalked up to "experience" (that I have more years than him, or he's newer on his Nox, etc....). Because we are flagging signals back and forth. And he has all the time in the world to play with a myriad of Nox settings. And when it's all said and done, he has to admit he wouldn't have heard them. Trust me: He's studied all the forums for tips, etc... So I could go with "experience" causing the disparity, if all we did was count end of the day oldies. But when it comes to FLAGGING, then .... No amount of added "experience" is going to make a signal appear, that's simply not there no matter what settings you use. It's gotten to the point where he's attributing it to EMI and electrical/radio/cell interference. Because it seems to get worse for him when the "city wakes up after 7am". So we've tried starting at 4 or 5 am. And while it's a little better, he's still getting spanked . We fully intend to continue the experimentation, now that he's had more time on his machine. Would love to have you along. There's a couch you can crash on, and the beer's on me . You game ? Any time we visit this zone we never lack for back to back deepie wheatie/silver type signals. Some very deep and difficult, but still never lack getting a dozen or more wheaties, 2 or 3 or 4 silvers, etc... Lastly : When it comes to relicky ghost-townsy type hunting, then yes, the Nox is spanking me. But I'm the first to admit that the Exp II is not a good see-through/averaging/separating machine. It's great on turf (as you know) , but only so-so in iron-infested messes. Bring Jamflicker with you. I got 2 couches, haha.

luv them old trade tokens. And love those old mother-of-pearl buttons. Whenever you eye-ball those, is when seateds and old tokens are likely to be near.

beautiful. Stunning. Keep 'em coming !!

What ? Your first coin was a wheatie ?? You cheated ! Your first coin is supposed to be a memorial. So that's not fair. Go do the right thing by re-burying it , and go find a memorial clad first ! Thankyou 🙂

Good to see some CA action.

WWaaaahhh, you east coast guys have all the luck. Old colonial stuff to chase. Sick sick sick.

Congratulations on the MD'rs holy grail "hole in one". A gold coin. You are now officially a "stud-muffin" :) Welcome to the club.

R.I.P. I remember, back in the '70s, when they were "all the rage ". 😞

Gary, I'm willing to bet that every single one of the seemingly burdensome hurdles you list, was ONLY a function of past md'rs who went and swatted hornet's nests. And I'm willing to bet that if I went asking enough questions here in CA, that I too could likewise come up with all sorts of silly supposed restrictions as well. Well durned that Tom_in_CA (and the rest of us here) for "not asking enough questions". Doh !

Steve, we've been detecting about the same amount of time : Since our teenage years. I too started in the mid to late 1970s, as a pimple faced teenager. And since then, have become about AS BRAZEN as they come. Balls of steel and no scruples. And like yourself, have never had any legal consquences. Oh sure, some scrams or stink -eyes now and then. Ok, so what. As far as "permits" (for the very very rare times that any city has ever dreamed up such a thing) : Yes I know that sounds romantic and inviting. It conjurs up images of being able to detect nilly willy and deflect busy-bodies, eh ? Hence who could ever argue with "permits", eh ? But notice that any time any city ever dreamed up such a thing, they tend to be fraught with sillyness. Eg.: Digger tool shall not exceed 3" in length. Or "not within 10 ft. of any tree". Or "turn in all valuables to the city hall office". Or "yes but you can't dig". Or "on sandy beaches only". blah blah blah. And worse yet, you'll notice that some cities that ever dreamed up such a thing, simply revoke them, and disallow it entirely a few years or decades later . WHY ? Because the mere fact that it's a "permit", means it's just ONE MORE THING on their radar to monitor. Eg.: each year, when reviewing their list of administered functions, then sure as sh*t, one year, someone's gonna look at this and say "Gee, do we really want all these yahoos out there digging up the park ?". And then simply revoke it. Hence it's MUCH more preferable to be "silent on the subject" (not addressed either way). Ie.: the LESS they think of us, the better. Not the "more " they think of us.

ketchneddy, read what I posted to D-dancer about sites/links like this.

Mike, this brings up an interesting twist on the subject : The issue of "Commentary" vs "law". Let me explain : There's been a lot of those nifty compendiums , where someone from up-top tosses out: "with permission" , or "inquire at each kiosk you come to", etc.... Ie.: not unlike what you're saying here. And this pithy saying may in fact be coming from some authority in the given agency. Thus: Pretty hard to argue with that, eh ? BUT WAIT : Notice that it's not in the rules or laws. Ie.: there's not a codified chapter and verse you can turn to. So what it REALLY is, is nothing-more-than some sort of answer, that someone passed out in the past to an md'r who was asking "Can I?" type questions. Eg.: like on an FAQ or whatever. And I don't disagree that the powers-that-be can indeed say "scram" or "no". I mean, sure, they are given the discretion to decide that something you or I are doing isn't safe or whatever. So for example, they can ask you to turn down your boom box if the music is too loud. Ie.: they have latitude to interpret the grey-area verbiage to keep law and order. Therefore, if you ever asked them something like : "Can I throw rocks" or "Can I collect sticks", they can say "As long as the park ranger at that location says it's ok", or "with permission from the ranger on duty", etc.... And then every md'r, from then on out, thinks "I must get the personal thumbs up ". For example, this knee-jerk answer was very common in R.W. Doc Grim's book. Many of the states said "with permission" or "inquire at each park", etc.... Yet when you went to look up to see where this was written, IT WAS NO WHERE TO BE FOUND. All it was , was commentary, not law. And notice that the commentary DIDN'T EVEN EXIST till R.W. Doc (bless his little heart) sent in his inquiries. All it was/is , is a tacit admission that, sure, they have the say-so to administer as they see fit. But that DOESN'T mean you need their approval ahead of time (if not specifically forbidden). It only means they can tell you "stop", if someone thought it was harmful etc... So for example, I don't need to inquire ahead of time if it's ok to fly frisbees (might poke someone's eye out). But sure: They can approach me and say "stop flying frisbees " if they wanted. Anyhow, this is the difference between commentary and laws.

I have a feeling that there's not a single city in the entire USA, that if you were to walk into city hall and say : "Hello, can I take historically significant items from the park please ?" that you'd get a "Sure, go ahead" answer. So while I agree that there's certain cities and certain parts of the USA that are , yes, more historically significant, yet : There's not a single city anywhere that would answer "yes" to the above question. It would fall under prohibitions of "harvest and collect and remove" wording. Or cultural heritage wording. So to whatever extent what you are saying could be true for certain cities of higher-historic-significance, yet I'll bet that the only reason it ever came on the radar of pencil-pushing lawmakers, is we md'rs, of the past, who went in swatting hornet's nests. Or were doing something stupid like showing up at high traffic times during archie conventions, and waltzing over beach blankets with their detectors.

And this is the inherent ingredient that always occurs in these type news items : If ever a supposed law, or something negative legally about us is tossed out there for consumption, then it's just human nature to fear it. And human nature to "pass it on". And human nature to believe it ("lest you get arrested" blah blah) Here's an example of the psychology at work: Consider shark attacks. Very very rare. Perhaps only a single person got chomped in all of the USA in a given year. Yet thousands of people swim daily. Ok, you tell me: If 1000 people swam in a day, and none got chomped, then there'd be no headline. But if a SINGLE person got chomped on a SINGLE day of a year, then it makes the front page news. And then guess what you'll fear and warn others about, the next time you go to the beach ? And you'll subconsciously disregard the million to one odds that you're totally safe to swim. Actually, that's probably not even a good illustration. Since in the case of the TN archie, he wasn't even correct in the first place (ie.: there was no shark attack to fit this analogy ). But I'm just trying to point out how people subconsciously latch on to bad news, and remember only that. And do nothing to see if it's true, lest they be "throwing caution to the wind" and "better safe than sorry", blah blah. So we tend to never question this stuff.

And I have a sneaking suspicion of how those came-to-be . Care to take a guess ? And no, it wasn't "because someone must've left holes".

You are not mistaken. But this is a mistake that is made over and over and over again, especially by newbies. They pick up on a list like that, or the FMDAC list, etc.... And find something dire about their state's park. And make the mistaken jump to think that means "all parks in their state". IT DOESN'T. It only means state parks, not other entity parks. Also, I have my doubts about some of the info spelled out about state parks too. On some of them, that appear to be a "no", if you delve deeper , you see no such *specific* rule that truly says such a thing. Instead it might point to cultural heritage, for example. Ok fine, you're only looking for new coins and/or the ring your wife lost last week. RIGHT ? Or nuggets or meteors, etc... Or it might point to harvest/collect or alter/deface. Which tells you what ? That someone went swatting hornet's nests years ago and got this 'pressing answer'. In CA, for example, some of the listings I've read do sound dire. Yet , for example, you can hunt state beaches here (which are administered by the EXACT SAME STATE PARK'S Dept.) till you're blue in the face. Moral of the story ? : We leave "good enough alone". And I hope to h*ll that no one ever goes "seeking clarification".

my opinion of compendiums such as that, was spelled out in my reply to D-dancer. Sometimes you can take them with a grain of salt, and must read between the lines. A little knowledge about how they were assembled in the first place, sheds light on how worried you need to be about some of that info.

I've only hunted the east coast states a single time. But I have a couple of friends here, who annually fly into the east coast, and get a rental car. And then proceed to randomly drive around scores of east coast colonial age cities. Eg. Rhode Island, NY, Vermont, MA, CT, MH, etc..... And hit any and all old parks and courthouse lawns , in all the small towns that they come to. And unless there's a glaring sign that said "no md'ing", they do not hesitate to hit any and all parks they come to. Oh sure, they have the 'presence of mind' not to go at high traffic times, begging for attention. But in all their years of doing this, can recall only a time or two being told "scram" (yeah yeah, that can happen anywhere). So based on their accounts, I don't think it's any more difficult to hunt east coast parks as it is to hunt west coast parks. If I'm wrong, and it's more clamped down there, then I have a sneaking suspicion of how that came to be. Care to take a guess ?