Controls Are Dangerous, Keep Them Off Detectors

[NCtoad]

14 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

So this depth issue revolved around a difference of 1/8"?  Wow.  What are the (quantified) uncertainties around the measurements that determined this discrepancy, anyway?

I was thinking the same thing. 

[Bill (S. CA)]

On 3/6/2022 at 10:11 AM, Geotech said:

The V3 is a counter-argument to this. It had (almost) as many controls as possible but people complained bitterly that it was too complicated to use. Even though there was a simplified interface mode (the "6-block" menu screen) for newbies and the placement of advanced features in the aptly-named Expert menus. Even adding a full interactive help system in the V3i didn't do much to curb the complaints. And many of those complaints came from dealers who were so uncomfortable with the detector they often wouldn't try to sell it*.

The issue is that the user always feels he is not getting peak performance unless all controls are optimized. So they feel the need to try to adjust everything, often for the worse. With 5 controls you couldn't get in too much trouble... with 50 controls trouble comes easy. Add to this that buyers of the V3 were often newbies who felt that if they are going to buy a metal detector then they should just go ahead and buy a top-of-the-line model and skip the learning stage.

The VX3 had a good solution that was never carried through. It is hardware-identical to a V3i but features were pared way back. But it actually has 3 more skill "levels" that can be activated with passwords, which incrementally add more features until it becomes a full-blown V3i. The idea was to sell these as e.g. $99 upgrades people would buy when they were ready. It was never offered.

But it does beg the question: If you could buy, say, an Equinox 600 today for $700 and later upgrade it to an 800 for an add'l $300 would you find that to be a distasteful business practice? I recently read that auto manufacturers are considering this, where you pay a la carte for options that are software-disabled even when the hardware is designed into the car. Surveys indicate that this would greatly annoy new car buyers. However, oscilloscopes are being sold this way now... you can buy a basic model and then upgrade the bandwidth or enable the signal generator or logic analyzer features later.

For a detector I'm thinking more like the VX3, where there are 4 levels, each of which offer a several new features that are progressively more advanced. The incremental upgrade price would depend on the price of the base model and the corresponding advanced model but, for argument, let's say $99 each and also say that a fully upgraded base model is just slightly more expensive than buying the top model from the start.

And, no, this is not a hint of anything FTP is considering. In fact, I'm certain they would not.

*At White's we were told, "If the dealer can't explain the feature, then we don't include it." I heard over & over "keep it dumb-dirt-simple." I still don't know how the V3 ever made it out the door.

Carl,

I love the fact that you brought the V3i into this discussion.  I had one and if memory serves me correctly I got it when there was a coil issue at White's.  My V3i had two bad coils.  When I finally got a good coil I did like the detector but like many I was overwhelmed by the number of settings/adjustments possible with the detector.  I recall at the time thinking that White's needed to pare the detector back for some users; I had no idea that the VX3 was in fact a reality.  I don't know that I would have gone along with the $99.00 upgrade idea but perhaps this concept could have been implemented in a manner similar to the old Coinmaster 1, 2 & 3 series.  Or maybe offering a V3I "dual" that would offer the two platforms in one unit.  All I know is that to this day no manufacturer has offered anything close to the V3i in terms of ingenuity.  It would be cool if Garrett brought the model back.  They should bring you on board to make sure it's done right!

Bill

[Geotech]

On 3/7/2022 at 9:01 AM, ☠ Cipher said:

It does seem that the V3i not being quite as popular as it could’ve been has caused many to throw the baby out with the bath water. Multifrequency spectrograph and multifrequency pinpoint were great ideas then and great ideas now, but when this was discussed with NM for example, they were reluctant to mimic anything about the V3i because of its reputation for complexity and feature “overload.” Another reason you may not ever see these features again is because metal detecting manufacturers would then have to get honest with us about how many simultaneous frequencies they are actually using. You can’t have 3 frequency spectrograph and pinpoint on a machine running 2 frequencies at a time, for example. But boy is that multifrequency pinpoint no motion effective in commingled sites. It made up for the slow recovery of the machine overall, and was actually an amazing tool for determining where one item ends, and another begins, as well as their composition. For those who love the V3i there has been and likely will be no equal anytime soon. I plan to keep mine alive as long as possible. 

The V3 had a lot of innovation and cutting edge features. It was the first detector with color display, the second with wireless headphones, had stereo mixed-mode audio, and features like the SpectraGraph, Live Controls, and fully customizable audio tones. But where it was lacking was raw performance. Steve is right, a lot of people dove deep into the settings looking for ways to improve performance. But it wasn't all because the V3 was set to a low bar, it was because it fundamentally didn't perform as well as, say, an MXT or an Explorer. Part of the shortcoming was in the analog design and the reason for that is because the guy who knew the most about it -- Mark Rowan -- was run out of the company.

In any case, there are a lot of cool features in the V3 that have yet to make it into another detector. We had a lot of other ideas that didn't make the V3 cut (the V4 was defined and started but didn't get far because all the players left White's) and I would love to design a new/better/high-performing V4 at some point. Ergo my curiosity about the acceptability of user levels.

On 3/7/2022 at 10:38 AM, GB_Amateur said:

Also there is no indication in that thread that Fisher/First Texas changed its tune about being able to turn off DST, but there certainly was skeptism that this was the case regardless of what First Texas said.  Would have been nice to hear it from the "horse's mouth" ('horse' being Dave Johnson) but I've seen nothing yet that has Dave's signature attached.

David didn't develop DST, John Gardiner did. I have no idea if 'off' really means 'off' but I'll try to find out.

On 3/7/2022 at 10:40 AM, Mike_Hillis said:

Hey Carl....any chance you know those passwords and key strokes to unlock the VX3?     

Sorry, I would share it if I did. Update passwords were unique to each detector. White's had a PC utility where you type in the detector's serial number and it generated the passwords. That utility was lost, along with the one that would reset your personal password if you forgot it, or if you bought a used V3 and wanted to reset the owner info.

2 hours ago, Bill (S. CA) said:

It would be cool if Garrett brought the model back.  They should bring you on board to make sure it's done right!

That would be a tall order, with or without me. The V3 needs extensive redesign.

 

[schoolofhardNox]

On 3/6/2022 at 1:11 PM, Geotech said:

The V3 is a counter-argument to this. It had (almost) as many controls as possible but people complained bitterly that it was too complicated to use. Even though there was a simplified interface mode (the "6-block" menu screen) for newbies and the placement of advanced features in the aptly-named Expert menus. Even adding a full interactive help system in the V3i didn't do much to curb the complaints. And many of those complaints came from dealers who were so uncomfortable with the detector they often wouldn't try to sell it*.

The issue is that the user always feels he is not getting peak performance unless all controls are optimized. So they feel the need to try to adjust everything, often for the worse. With 5 controls you couldn't get in too much trouble... with 50 controls trouble comes easy. Add to this that buyers of the V3 were often newbies who felt that if they are going to buy a metal detector then they should just go ahead and buy a top-of-the-line model and skip the learning stage.

The VX3 had a good solution that was never carried through. It is hardware-identical to a V3i but features were pared way back. But it actually has 3 more skill "levels" that can be activated with passwords, which incrementally add more features until it becomes a full-blown V3i. The idea was to sell these as e.g. $99 upgrades people would buy when they were ready. It was never offered.

But it does beg the question: If you could buy, say, an Equinox 600 today for $700 and later upgrade it to an 800 for an add'l $300 would you find that to be a distasteful business practice? I recently read that auto manufacturers are considering this, where you pay a la carte for options that are software-disabled even when the hardware is designed into the car. Surveys indicate that this would greatly annoy new car buyers. However, oscilloscopes are being sold this way now... you can buy a basic model and then upgrade the bandwidth or enable the signal generator or logic analyzer features later.

For a detector I'm thinking more like the VX3, where there are 4 levels, each of which offer a several new features that are progressively more advanced. The incremental upgrade price would depend on the price of the base model and the corresponding advanced model but, for argument, let's say $99 each and also say that a fully upgraded base model is just slightly more expensive than buying the top model from the start.

And, no, this is not a hint of anything FTP is considering. In fact, I'm certain they would not.

*At White's we were told, "If the dealer can't explain the feature, then we don't include it." I heard over & over "keep it dumb-dirt-simple." I still don't know how the V3 ever made it out the door.

"Put as many controls on the unit as possible." I wrote that with a tiny bit of sarcasm ? but generally meant it. Not that I want to see a cluttered up machine or screen or have to get a college degree just to use it, but to highlight what happens when trends start in the manufacturing industry. One manufacturer does a turn on and go machine and they all follow. That is a dangerous thing to buy into, if you are and avid detectorists. If I go cheap (for the new technology) I will be disappointed in the lack of controls, but if I wait, I lose the chance to try something new and possibly beneficial to my type of hunting. I'm getting the feeling that a turn and go machine is what they want beginners to get, while a mid priced machine is what gives me the options that I usually want, and recently the high end stuff is extremely focused on one task (like the GPX 6000). You can't go by lineage anymore since the GPX 6000 is nothing like the GPX 5000.  Carl, I was actually very interested when White's announced the Vision was coming. I saved up for it, since I had been with Whites since the CMV Supreme days. But legal delays and my attention span being short, I opted to try a Minelab and never looked back. I wish the V3 would have been available, but not under powered. I would have love the ability to explore the different (and sometimes unorthodox) combinations that might arise. I think it would have been a great park machine. I guess I don't understand the view of a manufacturer that doesn't want to make a machine that has beginners as well as advanced users talking about how great it is. To me it's simple, just leave a note to beginners telling them to use the expert menu at their own risk. Then just show them the factory reset button ? Problem solved.

[EL NINO77]

I would never exchange the Spectra V3 for its simplified version of the Spectra VX3 ....

Specta VX3 is missing 2 important settings,
  .. the first setting is TX Bost ....
  TX bost is the most important setting .... in terms of depth of detection ... especially when using 3F multifrequency .. then release release Tiger from the cage ....

Because the Spectra V3 on TX "normal" has a very soft 3F multifrevention range.

Another very important thing when turning on the TX bost is the higher resistance of the detector against EMI.....2.5 amps TX on the coil .. will do its job here ......
.
..The second important setting is 8 Ground filters // 5hz, 7.5hz, 10hz, 12.5hz Band or High Ground filter // which is actually the recovery speed of more modern detectors ../ compared to 2 Ground filters / 5hz and 12.5hz Band type which has VX3 ...

  .. on many medium mineralized terrains 5hz will not work reliably ,,, and again 12.5 hz band Ground filter will again be relatively weaker in range ... - especially on the standard 10 "DD  coil...

As for the difficulty of the Spectra V3 - for settings .. in fact, you only change 5 important settings there - just like with other modern detectors ...?

 

however, it is good to say that since the inception of Spectra, many current detectors have gained some detection capabilities ... significantly further ... it is mainly that the manufacturers have not been in place and in the meantime have improved detection technology for their new detectors ...

 

In the picture there is a certain part of my detectors .... / except my colleague Fisher CZ 6, and 1 Rutus Atrex / .. and some have more settings other detectors have only a few settings ... but they are all great detectors ...

[☠ Cipher]

4 hours ago, Geotech said:

Ergo my curiosity about the acceptability of user levels.

When you look at the success of machines like the XP Deus, now the XP Deus 2, the FBS machines, it seems that if the raw performance is there users will accept, maybe even embrace a fair bit of complexity. I’m sure a lot depends on the UI organization and ease of navigation as well, but if a machine develops a reputation for being a beast, particularly right out of the box users will buy it. Some features make these machines a lot of fun to use, like the spectrograph on the V3i, target trace on the CTX, and even Ferrocheck would be a nice feature if it had a bit more range of effectiveness. I think a top end machine ought to have a color screen and graphics, and I don’t think it necessitates a lot of extra weight these days, or am I wrong on that? 

[Geotech]

The issue with color screens is power consumption & sunlight readability. Though I suppose that power consumption can turn into weight if larger batteries are required. The V3 pulled ~250mA and with 8-AA batteries would run about 8 hrs. Part of that was the low f of 2.5kHz. Don't go that low, use a new more efficient display, and use Li-Ion batteries and it probably lands in the 3-lb range.

 

[Steve Herschbach]

19 hours ago, ☠ Cipher said:

it seems that if the raw performance is there users will accept, maybe even embrace a fair bit of complexity.

If the raw performance is there, people will put up with almost anything. I told Minelab once, that when it came to nugget detectors, they could put spikes in the armrest. People would be in pain and bleeding, but as long as the machine detected nuggets deeper then anything else, they’d buy it. I was joking, but there is some truth in that.

Cell phones face the same issues with color screens and battery life, and no doubt solutions created there will find their way to metal detectors eventually. To me it’s not so much color though as advanced displays in general. I think the Whites SignaGraph and SpectraGraph systems were fabulous for identifying ferrous in particular, and just great for jewelry detecting. The Minelab 2D display, as exemplified in CTX 3030, is also pretty amazing. But it seems advanced display is dying out in favor of a simple, single target id number.

I won’t argue the virtues of those systems, but just observe that market demand does not seem to be enough to keep those systems available in any number, as models with them are declining, not increasing. Or it may be people want them, but as noted above, they can be left off, and people will still buy, as long as the machine otherwise performs. The problem is simple. Manufacturers copy what sells, and if something like an Equinox turns into a best seller, then everything starts looking like an Equinox. Kind of sucks, but that’s how it works. Long story short is V3i will probably go down in history as as high water mark of adjustability and display options, with the market now headed in exactly the opposite direction.

[GB_Amateur]

6 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

I think the Whites SignaGraph and SpectraGraph systems were fabulous for identifying ferrous in particular, and just great for jewelry detecting. The Minelab 2D display, as exemplified in CTX 3030, is also pretty amazing. But it seems advanced display is dying out in favor of a simple, single target id number.

I've wondered for years (not just since I joined here) if most people don't understand plots/graphs.  If this site is any indication, very few graphs are posted and when they are..., crickets.  (With exceptions, of course.)  That really seems to be the rule, not the exception.

I came very close to buying a V3i but got scared off by both the price and the weight.  As always, light weight without good balance is just as bad, probably worse than moderate to even heavy weight with good balance, so maybe on that feature my choice was unjustified.  I recall the VX3 didn't have as many graphics features as the V3i which soured me a bit on going with the lower cost option.

In the long run manufacturers deliver what customers want.  Even the worst offender ever (IMO), McDonalds, finally came around, but it took them 40+ years.  I think MD manufacturers have realized that the vast majority of customers don't want graphics so why go to the trouble and expense?  XP seems to be an exception at the moment, though.