Minelab, What The Heck Did You Do To My Equinox?????

[palzynski]

2 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

... A few months ago I posted a comparison that included a question that went something like "Between the Equinox 800/900, Deus 2 and Legend, which one has to go and which ones get to stay?" At the time I thought for sure the one to go would be Deus 2. That has totally flipped. Deus 2 isn't going anywhere and neither is my Legend.

I dont have a 900 but I did notice in the past that it sometimes needs several months and even more than a year to correctly assess a detector .  Drawing conclusions after only 10 or 20 hours is risky even if tempting as there is a strong demand for tests and reports when a new detector is released ... I often made this error in the past ,  I am much more careful now ... ?

100 hours testing like you did is the right way to do the job , and there are very few people to do that.  Thanks for your report ... 

[phrunt]

I have confidence they will fix it, especially on the 900, it's just a blinged up 800 and includes extra Target ID's with the same software tweaked a bit, it's instability should only be jumping around an extra three or four numbers over what you'd expect with the 800 with it's larger ID range.  Something more is going on by the sounds of it, the Manticore with less ID's should be even more stable than the 900 but it doesn't sound like it is.

I'm sure all these detectors share a lot of the code and hardware with each other.

If anyone recalls I was constantly commenting how stable the Nox 800 and Vanquish are in my soils, to the point I cherry picked almost constantly and was rarely wrong with my prediction of which coin it was going to be that popped up.  I can't do that with the Manticore, I can't have that confidence.  Some may say I need to learn the Manticore, I didn't need to learn the Nox or Vanquish, I turned them on and found coins with great success based off the target ID's alone.   I don't need 100 hours to see that a coin in mild soils with no junk is not as easy to find accurately as it once was, I've done side by sides with the Nox 800 and Vanquish on targets against the Manticore, I know which works best at identification in my conditions, in saying that I've had a lot more than 100 hours now but I knew long before 100 hours, in 10 hours perhaps.

I hope they can improve it, but I fear with detecting there seems to be a bit of give and take, they gave other improvements maybe at the detriment of Target ID's.  The thing that bothers me the most about this is they were and are still marketing the Manticore as having improved Target ID's over the Nox 600/800... and that to me in my conditions which for most detectors are the easiest conditions around is simply not true.

I would not trust accepting and rejecting targets with such unstable Id's.

I could do it down to the notch on the Nox.

If they can just fix this the Manticore is near perfection for me, it's the only gripe I have with it although a rather big one, if they fix it I'll be happy as can be.  Everything else about it is fantastic, they just weren't capable of hitting a home run on this one and the original Equinox is the detector that was the real game changer.  I believe the Manticore is very overpriced considering its shortfall.  Please fix it Minelab, at least acknowledge it and say you're working on a firmware update to resolve it, give your customers some indication that you care.  At the moment those singing loudly with disappointment are damaging your sales far more than saying we didn't quite get it right and we are working on a firmware update to fix it.

 

 

 

[Chesroy]

9 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

A joint Manticore and Equinox 700/900 ID stability update would be great.

I have not experimented with running the Equinox 900 below 18 versus up to 25 in order to determine depth loss versus stability since the ground only fully thawed out here about 2 weeks ago. I will look into that. However, that is not a permanent solution.

I have heard many users recommend running Beach mode to help ID stability on some targets.

There is so much magnetite in the soil where I detect that running Equinox, Legend or Deus 2 Beach in their Wet Sand modes causes too much automated lowering of sensitivity to be a realistic option.

I would be very interested Jeff in your observations regarding the same site and lower sensitivity settings vs your 25 sensitivity settings. At my locations low to medium mineralisation with high trash causes information overload, lower sensitivity quietens and stabilises my machine down when things get noisey. Pretty sure updates are on the way and stability will be improved. The 800 is still up there and a great machine put it in the 900 body with new shaft, include a back button for navigation  in the menu system and improve its unmasking and separation abilities in line with the 900 and I would buy it at a drop of a hat. Provided it also came with a module.  Don't care about the flash light or the vibration. There my rant over ? 

[GB_Amateur]

12 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Equinox 800 on those same targets at that depth- clad dimes are a consistent 24 to 26 and copper pennies are 26 to 30 at worse using Park 1 Multi no matter where I set tone breaks or recovery speed.

I'm going to hone in on this as it might lead to something meaningful.  (I don't have a 900 and it's way too early for me to comment on the Manticore's performance.)

Here are my counts on clad dimes and 95% copper Memorial cents for the five years that I used the Equinox 800 (w/11" stock coil) almost exclusively.  These are in chronological order 2018-->2022

clad dimes:  213, 196, 151, 265, 112 -- total of 937

copper Memorials:  326, 314, 300, 355, 161 -- total of 1456

That occurred from 1194 hours of detecting mostly parks and schools.

To this day I cannot distinguish a clad dime from a copper Memorial, not from the audio and not even from the VDI (digital target ID values).  Both hit around 25-26 with of course a few 24's, etc.  Have I ever gotten an ID in the high 20's?  Rarely on a deep Memorial and then it's not consistently up there but jumpy 24-29 or so.

My depths for these go down to about 8" although the vast majority are 6" and less (mostly less).  Could I tell them apart?  I would do just as well by flipping a coin (pun intended).  (OK, a coin biased 60::40 because that seems to be the natural ratio of Memorials to clad dimes as shown in the above totals.)

So what's going on?  There are many possible explanations but IMO the most likely 3 are:

1) Our specific Eqx 800 units perform differently,

2) Our settings are different, leading to the discrepancy,

3) Our ground mineralization is so different that it results in this discrepancy.

#1 is by far the least likely, IMO, partly because others have said something similar to what I said (see UT Dave's post above for example) and you, Jeff, have (I'm pretty sure) used multiple Equinox 800's.

#2 doesn't seem out-of-the-question but enough people have tried widely different settings and it seems someone (more likely many someones) would have pointed this out if they noticed that settings A gave significantly different VDI's than settings B for the same target.

#3, well, hasn't this been the bee in the bonnet for years if not decades for many reported differences in detector performance?  I'm seeing a pattern here.  Could your Eqx 900 VDI wildness be due to your difficult ground -- something many (especially beach detectorists) and even Minelab don't notice (or maybe swept under the rug in the latter case)?

[strick]

12 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

Setting upper tone breaks where you suggest will not change the fact that clad dimes and copper pennies are reading from 68 to 98 on the 900 depending on what direction the coil approaches them and if they are 3” or deeper. 

I remember someone asking me early on if I was able to differentiate a copper cent from dime with the  M-Core and my answer was I did not think so they read bout the same usually in the high 70's to low 80's most of the time where I hunt. Zinc pennies will be in the 60's if they are good condition..I can see your frustration with such a large spread between copper cents and clad dimes. The only thing I don't like about my M-Core is.... I ONLY HAVE ONE COIL FOR IT MINELAB! 

strick 

[abenson]

Although I would love for Minelab to give an option to choose between having the 50 tone version of the old 800 as an option to use on the 900 and Manticore, I'm not holding my breath. But if they make the ID more stable that would be great too. My biggest challenge has been learning the new ID for all the targets I hunt. I've literally got to dig everything from 20 and up at relic sites now.

Jeff I'm not really seeing what you are on either the 900 or Manticore in my hundreds of hours of use now on both. No I can't tell the difference between a clad dime and a copper penny every time. I can call nickels most of the time on either machine, the tab separated from the ring does get me sometimes. Honestly I don't hunt parks all that much. But when parks were the only places I could get this winter I did quite a bit of park hunting with both the 900 and Manticore. Double and tipple beeping on surface coins yea, in the ground an inch or more no I'm not. 

The difference may be that I'm running all tones exclusively on both machines, recovery at 3 or 4 no matter the site and I've never hunted above 23 sensitivity on either machine. I've found especially on the Manticore that high sensitivity levels are counter productive and yes you will get erratic ID's when the sensitivity is run to high. I will say I prefer the 900 in iron trashy sites and for gold hunting, I prefer the Manticore over the 900 at parks and beach sites.

I've been debating about get rid of one or the other and for now I'm keeping both. Once a small coil comes out for the Manticore the 900 may go.

[Jeff McClendon]

31 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

I'm going to hone in on this as it might lead to something meaningful.  (I don't have a 900 and it's way too early for me to comment on the Manticore's performance.)

Here are my counts on clad dimes and 95% copper Memorial cents for the five years that I used the Equinox 800 (w/11" stock coil) almost exclusively.  These are in chronological order 2018-->2022

clad dimes:  213, 196, 151, 265, 112 -- total of 937

copper Memorials:  326, 314, 300, 355, 161 -- total of 1456

That occurred from 1194 hours of detecting mostly parks and schools.

To this day I cannot distinguish a clad dime from a copper Memorial, not from the audio and not even from the VDI (digital target ID values).  Both hit around 25-26 with of course a few 24's, etc.  Have I ever gotten an ID in the high 20's?  Rarely on a deep Memorial and then it's not consistently up there but jumpy 24-29 or so.

My depths for these go down to about 8" although the vast majority are 6" and less (mostly less).  Could I tell them apart?  I would do just as well by flipping a coin (pun intended).  (OK, a coin biased 60::40 because that seems to be the natural ratio of Memorials to clad dimes as shown in the above totals.)

So what's going on?  There are many possible explanations but IMO the most likely 3 are:

1) Our specific Eqx 800 units perform differently,

2) Our settings are different, leading to the discrepancy,

3) Our ground mineralization is so different that it results in this discrepancy.

#1 is by far the least likely, IMO, partly because others have said something similar to what I said (see UT Dave's post above for example) and you, Jeff, have (I'm pretty sure) used multiple Equinox 800's.

#2 doesn't seem out-of-the-question but enough people have tried widely different settings and it seems someone (more likely many someones) would have pointed this out if they noticed that settings A gave significantly different VDI's than settings B for the same target.

#3, well, hasn't this been the bee in the bonnet for years if not decades for many reported differences in detector performance?  I'm seeing a pattern here.  Could your Eqx 900 VDI wildness be due to your difficult ground -- something many (especially beach detectorists) and even Minelab don't notice (or maybe swept under the rug in the latter case)?

For me, the most important thing I experienced in my post which is also why I listed it first was:

-  4"+ deep flat laying clad dimes and copper pennies were triple beeping during left/right DD coil passes as if they were on the surface.

That type of audio information has been happening since day 1 of Equinox 900 use on those smaller coins. It is also happening on other coins and targets at that depth. I expect some whacky audio and IDs for coins on edge. Wild target coins laying flat that are roughly 4" deep or more usually (on the Equinox 800, Legend and Deus 2) just give one response on a left swing pass and one response on a right swing pass which is a good indication of a target that is not on the surface.

A lot is being made about not being able to tell the difference between a US clad dime and a US 95% copper penny. Personally I am going to dig both for many reasons at this point in my life. When I get even less capable of recovering targets due to age that might change. I will definitely skimp and pass over some US zinc pennies. I never skip over potential silver jewelry/silver US coin targets by not recovering US clad dimes and 95% copper pennies.

The point about US clad dimes and 95% copper pennies is that I am seeing an up to 30 target ID spread on these coins as I interrogate the target and circle them along with many instances of triple beep responses. These are not super deep targets but they aren't shallow either. I didn't just see that once. I saw that 30 target ID spread 24 times yesterday. I saw exactly the same thing on my 3 hour hunt the day before at a completely different park with completely different soil type.  I switched to Full Tones and saw the exact same thing. I have seen this over and over with the Equinox 900 on these coins from day one of use.

Sometimes I can call a clad dime vs a 95% copper penny using the Equinox 800. Sometimes I can't. There is some target ID overlap. However, 95% copper pennies usually read a little higher on the Equinox 800 from my experience. 

I fill up a 12 ounce coffee can with 95% copper pennies about every 6 months. After I look through them for anomalies and key dates, I tumble them quickly and deposit them at my bank. I used to save them incase the US Government decided to allow selling them to smelters for scrap copper. That probably won't happen in my lifetime so recently they just go to the bank.

All of the Equinox 600 and 800s I have owned (five or six...can't remember) detected virtually the same.

The level of iron mineralization absolutely effects the level of target ID accuracy. Same with salt.

The Equinox 600 and 800 with their 40 digit non-ferrous target ID range for the most part are a USA full spectrum cherry pickers dream detector except for the target traffic jam in the 11 to 15 target ID area. The Legend with its 50 non-ferrous target IDs (excellent stability by the way) is even better. Deus 2 with its 75 non ferrous target IDs is just a little less stable. I do see clad dimes and 95% copper pennies exchange places sometimes target ID wise, nickel target IDs can also change by one target ID number depending on ground balance and ground conditions. However, I have not seen any of those detectors have a six digit spread at the same time on US nickels or up to 30 different target IDs on clad dimes and copper pennies repeatedly when these coins are fairly shallow at 4" depth even in the crazy dirt around here.

[Jeff McClendon]

34 minutes ago, abenson said:

Although I would love for Minelab to give an option to choose between having the 50 tone version of the old 800 as an option to use on the 900 and Manticore, I'm not holding my breath. But if they make the ID more stable that would be great too. My biggest challenge ahs been learning the new ID for all the targets I hunt. I've literally got to dig everything from 20 and up at relic sites now.

Jeff I'm not really seeing what you are on either the 900 or Manticore in my hundreds of hours of use now on both. No I can't tell the difference between a clad dime and a copper penny every time. I can call nickels most of the time on either machine, the tap separated from the ring does get me sometimes. Honestly I don't hunt parks all that much. But when parks were the only places I could get this winter I did quite a bit of park hunting with both the 900 and Manticore. Double and tipple beeping on surface coins yea, in the ground an inch or more no I'm not. 

The difference may be that I'm running all tones exclusively on both machines, recovery at 3 or 4 no matter the site and I've never hunted above 23 sensitivity on either machine. I've found especially on the Manticore that high sensitivity levels are counter productive and yes you will get erratic ID's when the sensitivity is run to high. I will say I prefer the 900 in iron trashy sites and for gold hunting, I prefer the Manticore over the 900 at parks and beach sites.

I've been debating about get rid of one or the other and for now I'm keeping both. Once a small coil comes out for the Manticore the 900 may go.

I usually hunt with sensitivity set just below the level where the 900 (or any other detector) gets erratic whether that is from EMI, ground conditions or both. For the 900, that is usually in the 21 to 25 range. I am seeing the same target ID behavior with sensitivity set below that too during wild target hunts and during testing.

[abenson]

3 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

I usually hunt with sensitivity set just below the level where the 900 (or any other detector) gets erratic whether that is from EMI, ground conditions or both. For the 900, that is usually in the 21 to 25 range. I am seeing the same target ID behavior with sensitivity set below that too during wild target hunts and during testing.

Could be your mineralization. I know your dirt is worse than mine. The only wild ID's I'm seeing are deeper targets, like dimes at 7" and then it's up averaging to the high 90's. If I was seeing that same issue you described I would have never got rid of my 800. At this point I'm pretty happy with both the Manticore and 900.