Running The 15" Cc X Coil Over A 6000 Patch

[Aureous]

13 hours ago, Norvic said:

To my knowledge there was only one company making concentric coils for the VLF gold machine that was Dtek (spelling from memory) they also made the Search King 15Khz and the Gold King 5Khz VLFs in direct competition with Garret. They did not catch on, along with the concentric coil was shunned in my part of the world for a reason I didn`t understand, got the weight for me.  

Concentric coils were quite common with many company's back in the 80's, along with Co-planar and coaxial designs. The company you were referring to was Detex. Yes, very Garret-like and I think Garret bought out the company. Whites were big with concentric coils too.

[jasong]

7 hours ago, phrunt said:

On the GPZ the concentric coils have an outer transmit and two inner receive windings, and to top it off they're flat wound.  I can imagine the inner most receive winding is very small which might explain the super sensitivity they have.

Also that outer transmit winding on a 15" CC is a big winding, if you think about the standard DOD design.

The central transmit winding on the 14x13" GPZ coil is tiny compared to the transmit on the 15" CC.  I have no idea myself but you'd think that might have something to do with why the Concentric coils are so deep.  Just a guess of course, I do not know why they're so much better.

So due to these factors, we should probably expect a bigger performance gain from concentric coils on machines that use these DOD coils stock than we would expect to see on traditional PIs using monos which already have a large RX/TX loop?

[Norvic]

Many thanks Au, thought you`d be able to elaborate more on concentric coils of those days. Ah so that`s why Detex suddenly disappeared.

 Whether the depth of the GPZ CC Xcoils can be replicated on the 6K or other PIs comes down to field testing. You`d think if CC were viable on the PIs we`d have used them, I just can`t remember any talk of them being trialed for that time from the VLF days right up to the successful X coil CCs on the GPZ. Perhaps they weren't trialed until the GPZ. Has X coil, NF, Coiltek or any aftermarket coil manufacturer trialed a CC on the SDs to GPXs? 

[jasong]

There is enough performance gain with these CC's on the GPZ that I'm not even joking when I say Minelab could probably just supply one of these coils with a lighter design 7000 and call it the GPZ 8000 - 40% deeper for $8000, and probably be understating things, based on what I'm seeing.

It really makes me wonder what we'll see with the new GPZ whenever it comes out. The bar is high. It absolutely needs to be lighter weight, because it's pretty easy to get a much cheaper big bump in performance with the CC coils right now already. IMO, they need to bring more to the table than just depth and weight too, it needs to deal with salt and mineralization better than the 7000 too, in order to distance itself from what can be done with the buying a 15 or 17" CC on the original GPZ.

That all of course assumes we even have a new GPZ in works, which itself is just a total guess based on history.

[phrunt]

I've been wondering that about the GPZ 8000 too, I suspect they're just going to lighten it up, put in a faster processor so the user interface doesn't lag so much navigating it especially with GPS enabled.  I'm sure they could put an onboard speaker on the 8000 as ZVT is just SOOOOOOO much better with EMI. 

The downside to the 8000 if it ever exists will be they're going to change the coil plug end again, moving the chip inside the coil.   They won't achieve their goal will this but it does make life more difficult.

They'll probably have a few tweaks to the ZVT tech maybe even just assisted by modern processing technology.

They'll put Bluetooth instead of their WM12 and supply some cheap Chinese headphones with it with nice big Minelab logo's on them.  That works out cheaper for them than supplying a WM12 anyway.

I hope they don't change the shaft to that flimsy GPX shaft, I was happy mine wasn't one of the ones that twist, until yesterday and it twisted 3 times in half a days use so it's starting!   I really like the GPZ shaft, I use force to push down grass and bushes and have had no problems, I call the GPZ the bulldozer and the way I can use it compared to the GPX makes it feel that way.  The aftermarket has made collapsible shafts for the Equinox which are nice and light but still strong, they don't twist so I guess it can be done.

It should come with a concentric coil, 15 or 17" would be fine although I think 15" is a better all rounder.  It could also come with a small 10" DOD coil and then people are pretty well set up.  They could do a couple of accessory options of a 22" CC and a 17" spiral and I'd call that a decent range of coils to get started with and with that range it's obviously got big advantages over the existing GPZ, I would say that would quantify as enough for them to call it a GPZ 8000.  Standard GPZ 7000 users would certainly notice the enhanced performance to justify their spend.

If a GPZ 8000 does come out I'm going to be extremely cautious before buying it, I don't want to buy another expensive detector that I still prefer using my 7000 with it's X-coils over.

Detech have made concentric coils for the 4500/5000 series.

They've been discussed a fair bit here

They're cheaper than you'd think too  $510 AUD for the 18" CC

http://phasetechnical.com.au/product/detech-18-concentric-coil/

They seem to share some of the traits of the GPZ CC's, like the good sensitivity to small targets, although that's marketing saying that.  I'd like to try one out just because I love the GPZ CC's so much.

[jasong]

6 minutes ago, phrunt said:

They'll put Bluetooth instead of their WM12 and supply some cheap Chinese headphones with it with nice big Minelab logo's on them.  That works out cheaper for them than supplying a WM12 anyway.

Agree with most of that. But I really hope this isn't true.

I guess I stand alone here, but I really, really dislike the Bluetooth stuff. Even this APTx low latency stuff I find to be incredibly annoying with it's delay. I'm not sure how people don't notice the delay on it, I find it so distracting.

The faster you swing, the worse it gets. And when in prospecting mode moving quickly and covering ground, it's almost unusable to me.

The WM12 has no discernable delay, and I would take a WM14 100x over some Chinese headphones and an Aptx wireless module. Man I hope they don't do that.

[araratgold]

Jason, good to see your comparisons with the CC vs 6K. It just confirms how good the CC coils are on the ZED ( I have the 17CC ) and reinforces to me that the performance gains from the CC coils will surpass the 6K, without all the issues associated  with the 6K.

I've done away with the WM12 completely and just use a guitar lead plugged between the ZED and an SP01 enhancer, with my twin speakers plugged into the SP01. Voila, no lag at all ! Yes, you are " tied " to the detector, however the guitar lead is very stretchy, and after 20 years of GP and GPX detectors I'm used to it and it doesn't bother me.

I dislike the WM12 module, very fussy about where you put it to avoid dropouts.

Rick

[Steve Herschbach]

On 5/27/2022 at 1:02 PM, Norvic said:

To my knowledge there was only one company making concentric coils for the VLF gold machine that was Dtek (spelling from memory) they also made the Search King 15Khz and the Gold King 5Khz VLFs in direct competition with Garret. They did not catch on, along with the concentric coil was shunned in my part of the world for a reason I didn`t understand, got the weight for me.  

Many companies made or make concentric coils for VLF gold machines. Prior to Minelab popularizing DD coils, you could hardly get anything but a concentric on all VLF detectors. Whites had 10”, 14”, and 6” concentrics for the Goldmaster series, and the 24K sported a 6” concentric. I have one myself. All the Gold Bug 2 coils are concentric. Nokta made/makes concentrics for their nugget machines. Garrett for the AT Gold, etc. Not rare at all on VLFs, quite common really. It’s the PI world where they have been a rare thing, with mono taking the place normally seen by concentric since the VLF world.

Since there is a DD coil for the 6000, a concentric absolutely can be made for it. It’s just different ways of configuring separate transmit and receive coils.

https://www.detectorprospector.com/forums/topic/597-vlf-concentric-vs-dd-coils/

 

[jrbeatty]

5 hours ago, phrunt said:

 

Detech have made concentric coils for the 4500/5000 series.

They've been discussed a fair bit here

They're cheaper than you'd think too  $510 AUD for the 18" CC

http://phasetechnical.com.au/product/detech-18-concentric-coil/

They seem to share some of the traits of the GPZ CC's, like the good sensitivity to small targets, although that's marketing saying that.  I'd like to try one out just because I love the GPZ CC's so much.

Simon:  Thanks for reposting that thread - I'd clean forgotten about it - The late lamented Fred!  ?

My 18" Detech CC failed before I got a chance to test it on the goldfields thoroughly. In any event, I had already moved on to the "Z" and X Coil CC's.

1 hour ago, araratgold said:

I've done away with the WM12 completely and just use a guitar lead plugged between the ZED and an SP01 enhancer, with my twin speakers plugged into the SP01. Voila, no lag at all ! Yes, you are " tied " to the detector, however the guitar lead is very stretchy, and after 20 years of GP and GPX detectors I'm used to it and it doesn't bother me.

I dislike the WM12 module, very fussy about where you put it to avoid dropouts.

Rick

Rick:  Agree completely about the obsolescent WM12 system. I immediately fitted my favourite cordless Sennheiser RS160 system to the Z and have never looked back. I've used it on many detectors and have never had distortion, discernible lag or dropouts - allergic to cords!!

5 hours ago, jasong said:

-I guess I stand alone here, but I really, really dislike the Bluetooth stuff. Even this APTx low latency stuff I find to be incredibly annoying with it's delay. I'm not sure how people don't notice the delay on it, I find it so distracting.

The faster you swing, the worse it gets. And when in prospecting mode moving quickly and covering ground, it's almost unusable to me.

You're not alone. Absolutely agree - that's why I use the "Kleer" based Hi Fi Sennheiser system.