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Steve Herschbach

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  1. Keith Leppert has a new website set up for his Detector Center Metal detector repair business https://www.detectorrepair.com Keith currently is servicing both Minelab and Detector Pro products. It’s a nice website, with some explanation of out of warranty service costs, plus online parts sales. Check it out, and I will point Keith here for any feedback you all may have. Minelab Detector Parts Diagrams
  2. Now that Nokta/Makro have caught up or surpassed most everyone when it comes to single frequency and selectable frequency it will be exciting to see what appears for a true simultaneous multifrequency detector. And hopefully a pulse induction model one of these days! https://www.detectorprospector.com/forums/topic/3193-selectable-frequency-and-multiple-frequency/
  3. I visited Chisana and Bonanza Creek specifically in the 1990's but my records are pretty thin for this time period. The White's Goldmaster II revolutionized metal detecting in Alaska with its hot 50 kHz circuit. Alaska is not the land of large gold nuggets like Australia. In fact, large nuggets are very rare in Alaska, with the bulk of the gold produced being very fine gold as found by the bucket line dredge fleets in the state. The generally small gold size, and relatively low ground mineralization means hot VLF detectors work well for Alaskan prospecting. The Goldmaster series were the first really successful nugget detectors in Alaska, followed by the Fisher Gold Bug 2. As you can see below, my small nugget finds really took off with the Goldmaster! Every few years I would take the latest, newest model of metal detector to Chisana and find some more gold. Here are a few photos from the 1990's.... Steve with early White's Goldmaster hunting the bench workings at Bonanza Creek Bonanza gold found... And more Bonanza bench gold.... Put it in a pile with the fines and better light.... Steve at Chisana with Minelab XT17000 metal detector To be continued....
  4. From Placer Mining Methods and Costs in Alaska by Norman L. Wimmler, U.S. Bureau of Mines, 1927 FLUMES AND SIPHONS Flumes and sometimes pipes are used for conducting water across ravines or places below the grade line of the ditch, along the face of vertical cliffs, over ground containing shattered or porous material productive of large seepage and absorption losses, or over ground difficult and costly to excavate. Most ditches encounter some of these conditions and ordinarily some flume must be constructed. Many miles of flume have been built in Alaska, but because the cost of construction is generally high and they are difficult to maintain, flumes should be used as little as possible, especially where ditching can be done or where pipe is permissible. Flumes are less permanent than ditches, for they are subject to exceptional deterioration as the waterway is not in use for the greater part of the year. Sand and gravel in the water cause deep scouring of the lining boards when in use, and during the winter the action of the ice and frost loosens and warps the boards. Snow and rock slides, floods, forest fires, and the weight of the deep snow may all cause damage. Where flumes are constructed over frozen ground special precautions are necessary to protect the ground from thawing; otherwise the foundations may settle, open the joints, loosen the boards, and make the flume break to pieces. Thawed ground expands on freezing, raising the flume and throwing it out of line and grade. On subsequent thawing, the flume will rarely return to its original position and after several of these successive periods will be so out of position as to be useless. SUCCESSFUL FLUME CONSTRUCTION Successful flumes have been built over frozen ground where the heavy sod covering is still intact by placing two heavy log stringers side by side on the sod parallel to the proposed flume; on these are placed the sills upon which the flume is constructed. Where there is no sod, the frozen ground is covered with a thick blanket of sod to keep in the frost. A thick covering of clay has also been used, but it is not a permanent protection. Satisfactory foundations have also been made by digging shallow holes, filling them with gravel, and placing on top a wide plank or timber to distribute the load. A notably successful flume over frozen ground was built on the Miocene ditch.22 This flume is 1,100 feet long and has a width of 8 feet and a depth of 28 inches. It was constructed in 1901, and until 1906 or 1907 it retained practically perfect alignment, both horizontal and vertical. No extensive repairs were necessary on it until 1909. In putting in the foundations, trenches were dug 3 or 4 feet in the frozen ground, which was practically all ice. A sill was laid in the bottom of the trench and the uprights fastened to the sill. The excavated material was then replaced in the trenches and allowed to freeze again into its original condition. Sod was carefully placed over the trench, the uprights were then sawed off to grade, and the flume constructed on them. Even with all these precautions, however, at the end of about eight years the flume was in such bad shape that extensive repairs had to be made. The grade to be given a flume is generally governed by the topography. Although increasing the grade also increases the velocity of the water and thereby permits use of a small flume at less expense, this practice is not the rule in Alaska. Most Alaska flumes are set on the same grade as the ditch or at a slightly increased grade. There are a few places where the flume grade is twice that of the ditch. The iron fluming which in recent years has been placed on the market has many advantages over the ordinary board flume and should be considered. in districts where lumber is expensive and long life with low maintenance is desired. Figure 8 shows a board flume in the Rampart district.
  5. Very nice gold Peg - love that fat porous piece! Sorry we missed you at the Nugget Shoot. We did kinda sorta meet but not really at the ICMJ 2014 Mining Summit. I think this is you I took a picture of but you were very intent chasing that gold nugget!
  6. Just to clarify Dilek - only coils made specifically for the Gold Kruzer will work with it, correct? And that the Kruzer Multi, Kruzer 14, and all Anfibio models can share coils? You folks are amazing!
  7. This great resource was written by project engineer Dave Johnson and published by White's in 2002. It has become very hard to find, which is a shame because it provides insights not only on the MXT and GMT but on metal detector design in general. I took the liberty of scanning my copy this morning and converting it to html and posting here at White's MXT Engineering Guide Hopefully White's will not mind. As I noted, there is some information here you will not see anywhere else. How many of you experienced MXT owners know this following information regarding the ground balance setting on the MXT from the report? "Electronic ferrite material and most "negative hot rocks" (cold rocks) will usually read in the 75-88 range. Most soils will read somewhat lower. Readings will almost never go below 25 except in salt or moist alkali soils. When readings indicate smaller numbers than 50 you may notice some reduction in sensitivity. Below 35, some rusty iron may give unpredictable responses. Below 25, iron objects may give unpredictable responses and/or may disappear entirely and the sound on nonferrous objects may become slightly more abrupt."
  8. White's MXT Engineering Guide David E. Johnson, engineering consultant This Engineering Guide is written to provide dealers and customers greater insight into what kind of product the MXT is, from an engineering perspective. It does not attempt to provide complete information on the features and use of the MXT: for that, please consult the MXT user's manual. A BIT OF HISTORY In January 1998, White's decided to develop a true multipurpose metal detector, with the kind of sensitivity it takes to be a real gold prospecting machine, and with computerized ground tracking for ease of use. White's in-house engineering staff was tied up on the project which eventually became the DFX. Therefore, in February White's asked me if I might be interested in taking on a new protect. I had a good track record on gold machines so it seemed like a good fit. I agreed. A month later at a dealer seminar in Sacramento, California, Jimmy Sierra announced the project, and said if the engineer didn't deliver, the engineer would have to go into hiding in Mexico. I was sitting in the back. We ran into one problem after another along the way. Jimmy, good chap that he is, didn't sic the thugs on me, though there were periods he was frustrated enough that the thought must have run through his mind. Although the project took longer than we expected we got two products out of it - the GMT and the MXT. The first major hurdle was to get the basic circuit and software system running, with a first class ground tracking system. The system architecture was totally new, not a revision of the existing Goldmasters. In early spring of 1999 an ugly prototype was up and swinging, and Larry Sallee became involved in field-testing. By April the ground tracking system was working so well that since that time very few changes have been needed. At that point we knew we had a solid foundation, so work began on the display, discrimination and target ID features. During the fall of 1999, we decided to tackle the problem of desert heat head-on. A lot of gold prospecting is done in desert heat in full sun. I set up a crude but effective, thermal engineering laboratory, measuring the temperatures reached inside housings of various configurations and colors in full sun. Then began the task of finding an LCD, which would handle the heat. Because the LCD display is an important feature of the MXT, we revisited the whole issue of display. The manufacturers of LCD display had expanded their product offerings. We found a larger one, and changed the mechanical design of the MXT to accommodate it. A FSTN 0160 F was selected, (there are more to choose from nowadays, so we used a bigger one than the GMT in the MXT.) In early 2000, White's decided to bring out a new Goldmaster based on the work that had already been done, while development of the multipurpose unit continued. So we modified a prototype to work with the Goldmaster search coil at about 50 kHz, and you know the rest of that story - the GMT "tracking Goldmaster" was introduced in early spring of 2001. As work continued on what eventually came to be called the "MXT", we spent a lot of time on the discrimination and target ID system. There are many different ways to do discrimination and ID, each with its own advantages and disadvantages, which aren't always known until you've had the thing in the field being tested for a while. A lot of work got thrown out as we found deficiencies in what had already been done, and discovered ways to improve things. As the project got closer to production, more people became involved with it, and offered their own ideas to improve it. The reason the MXT is as good as it is, is because of that long process of field-testing and revisions. While the MXT was still under development, the DFX was introduced. The MXT design was then revised to run at about 14 kHz in order to take advantage of the DFX loops. When it was finally time to call it "good" in June 2002, the MXT went into production quickly and smoothly. CIRCUIT DESIGN The circuitry of the MXT is almost identical to the GMT, which has already been on the market for a year and a half and has proven to be rock-solid. The GMT's circuitry broke a lot of new ground. It uses a reactive impedance transformation network to boost transmitter voltage for higher sensitivity. It uses an active transmitter regulator to keep transmitter voltage constant even when the search coil is moved over black sand that would blow an unregulated machine off the air. The differentiator-filter circuits usually found in metal detectors are eliminated. Those functions are now done in software, which is made possible by the use of a high-precision 16-bit A/D converter used in a way that makes it equivalent to 17 1/2 bits. All the controls are digitized, their function actually performed via software rather than in circuitry. The audio system is temperature compensated in software to eliminate threshold drift. For the MXT, we chose an operating frequency of 13.889 kHz. This is high enough to give good sensitivity to gold, low enough to give good target ID on typical coin, trash, and relic targets, electrically compatible with search coils derived from the DFX and halfway in between power line harmonics to minimize electrical interference. SOFTWARE The MXT uses a Microchip PIC 16C76 micro controller, chosen for its low power consumption and its set of features, which was a good match for this application. The software that runs in this chip is based on that in the GMT, but almost all of it is new or has major revisions, except the device drivers and the ground tracking system. Much of the new software is for target ID and discrimination, features that were not present in the GMT. Even the iron probability and VSAT systems in the MXT are new, despite their apparent similarity to the GMT. The MXT/GMT does as much of the signal processing as possible in software rather than in circuitry, using what we call "low-speed DSP architecture". The demodulated signals are digitized, and processed and analyzed in software. Control positions are also digitized and made part of the data in software. The desired audio signal is computed, and then converted back to voltage using a 12-bit D/A converter. The circuit board communicates with the LCD and trigger switch in the "pod" via a custom-designed serial link. In the MXT the filters, differentiators, and sample-and-hold functions are performed in software, not in circuitry. This eliminates the problems of channel mismatch and drift, which are often encountered in such circuits. The discrimination system is a second derivative ("two-filter'') design for quick response over a broad range of sweep speeds. The analysis system for determining what kind of target is present has special features which reduce interference from ground minerals, and which automatically scale target ID confidence according to the mineralization level. GROUND TRACKING SYSTEM The ground tracking system comprises two subsystems: a ground analysis engine, and a ground balancing system. The ground analysis engine continuously monitors incoming signals to determine whether the signals probably represent ground, or may be something else such as metal targets or electrical interference. Signals, which seem to be ground only, are put into a data analysis subsystem, which analyzes the data for a number of variables. Then it can be determined what the balance point of the ground matrix is and how fast that balance point is changing. It'd be nice to describe all this in detail but we'd rather not teach our competitors how to do it. The ground balance system does the actual balancing of the signals, doing in software somewhat the same job as a ground balance knob does on a manually balanced machine. When the TRAC toggle is in the "ground" or "salt" positions, the ground balancing system follows the output of the ground analysis engine. When the toggle is in the center "lock" position, the ground balance subsystem stops following the output of the ground analysis engine, which is still chugging away in the background continuing to gather ground data. The ground analysis engine can do a good job of telling the difference between ground matrix and anomalies such as hot rocks and metal targets. In order to tell the difference, it has to see matrix by itself during at least part of the sweep. When you're not in "lock", keep your sweeps broad, and don't loiter over the top of a target when checking it out. Otherwise the analysis engine may lose the ground matrix and start tracking into the target. However, if the target is strong enough to register on the VDI readout, the target ID system will tell the analysis engine to halt, allowing you to check the target without tracking into it. In all three programs, pulling the trigger to pinpoint a target also tells the ground analysis engine to halt. Some users will hunt with the tracking toggle in "lock", occasionally updating the ground balance by flipping into "ground" or "salt" momentarily when they start hearing too much ground noise. The resolution of the ground balancing system is 1 part in 4,000, and most of that resolution is concentrated in the range where high mineralization occurs. Therefore, the individual resolution steps are below audibility under all conditions. THE VSAT SYSTEM The VSAT system on the MXT is similar in a general way to the one on the GMT. The VSAT function is done entirely in software. Up to about 2/3 rotation, the SAT is of the conventional (first derivative or auto tune) kind, giving a "zip" sound on a nugget and a "boing" sound on a negative hot rock (cold rock). As you approach maximum rotation, the MXT goes into "HyperSAT". HyperSAT is a completely different type of SAT system with different sounds and target responses. The background threshold sound is a little rattier, but nuggets are crisper, the ground is quieter, and negative hot rocks vanish when you slow down your sweep. For all but the most experienced users whose ears are calibrated to hear every little nuance of a regular SAT signal, HyperSAT gives more effective depth in bad ground than normal SAT. THE DISCRIMINATION CONTROL The discrimination control does pretty much what you'd expect. Unlike some discriminators, when the control is at zero, there is no discrimination at all - i.e., "true zero discrimination" - and all targets will be detected. Below about 2, the discrimination is based on a combination of both signal phase, and signal strength relative to the strength of ground mineralization. This feature allows the user to get good rejection of shallow iron with minimal loss of deeper targets. THE GAIN CONTROL The gain control knob controls two things at once: the preamp circuit gain, and the software gain. The following is a simplified explanation which is not technically correct in all its details, but will serve to give a general picture how the gain control works. As you advance the gain control from 1 to 10, the preamp circuit gain steps through five levels of gain: xl, x2, x4, x8, and x16. On most machines (depending on minor variations in search coil alignment) you can hear a momentary blip as the machine switches from one gain level to the next. The recommended preset (marked by the triangle) corresponds to a preamp gain of x8. In mild ground conditions where there is no electrical interference, you may want to advance the gain control into the crosshatched region. In this region, the signal data in software is multiplied by successively larger numbers, increasing the loudness of the signals. It is somewhat similar to the "audio boost" function found on some other models of metal detectors. It's particularly useful if you're using the speaker rather than headphones and there's a lot of noise from traffic or wind, or if you're demoing the machine to someone else. BASIC SENSITIVITY PERFORMANCE Since this is a multiple-purpose machine, a U.S. Nickel coin is the most appropriate standard test target. With the gain cranked up, and in the absence of electrical interference, a nickel will typically "air test" beyond a foot using the standard 95O search coil. Your actual "air test" distance will depend on your hearing, the sweep speed, what search coil is used, how much electrical interference is present, and how you have the controls set. In comparison to other machines in this price range, the MXT is extremely hot on low-conductivity items. On gold, it's right in there with the more popular gold machines, being especially hot on the larger, deeper nuggets. It will compete with all comers on low-conductivity , relics and on nickels. On high conductivity coins such as quarters and silver dollars, it is still an excellent performing machine, but there are several other products in the same league for sensitivity. GROUND TRACKING PERFORMANCE The ground tracking system is nearly identical to that in the GMT, which is widely regarded as one of the best tracking systems on the market. Compared to most other trackers, the MXT has superior resolution, tracks faster, "jumps" into new ground more quickly, has greater resistance to tracking into targets, and tracks over a wider range of soil conditions. The MXT allows tracking to be inhibited if desired. DISCRIMINATION PERFORMANCE All discriminator designs are compromises. Here's how the discriminator in the MXT stacks up against other machines. AIR TEST "DEPTH": generally well beyond 10 inches, because of high sensitivity, with effective discrimination to within 0-3 inches of the basic air sensitivity of the target. Most discriminators will discriminate in air to within 0-3 inches of the target air depth on most targets, but most don't have the sensitivity of the MXT. QUICKNESS & TARGET SEPARATION: among the best, because of medium-speed second derivative ("two-filters") design. Initial field reports indicate that the MXT's mixed-mode tone system gives indication of adjacent ferrous/nonferrous targets, superior to that obtainable through discrimination. IRON REJECTION: Because of its high sensitivity and a slight preference in the software for not losing questionable targets, it'll be a little chattier than some less sensitive machines. Reducing sensitivity by cutting back on gain, or by reducing the threshold control setting to minimum, will help quiet it down when necessary. DEPTH IN MINERALIZED GROUND: Although the MXT is a two-filter system, it incorporates special techniques which reduce ground interference and which reduce the "chopping & popping" which plague most other two-filter machines. This, together with its high basic sensitivity, makes it an excellent machine from the standpoint of discrimination depth. FAST SWEEPING: Many discriminators tend to lose good target signals, even shallow ones, when quickly sweeping the search coil. The MXT is tolerant of moderate search coil sweeps, that is to say good at both faster and slower search coil paces. SUMMARIZING: The MXT has the responsiveness and sensitivity of a first-rate 2 filter machine, combined with the discrimination accuracy of a first-rate 4-filter machine. TARGET I.D., ETC. With its small medium and large blocks on the target ID screen, the ID system in the MXT bears a superficial resemblance to the "Signagraph" of the Spectrum XLT. It should be realized that the traditional White's Signagraph system is typically (optionally) set to accumulate data over multiple passes over a target, and displays the accumulated average. The MXT displays fresh data on each pass and scales the size of the block according to how strong the signal was relative to the ground conditions on that specific pass over the target. The visual ID system on the MXT is fast, easy to read, generally more accurate than the discriminator, and gives a visual indication (via block size) of how reliable the identification is. It is going to change the minds of many beeper enthusiasts who previously thought visual ID to be of little practical use outside typical coin shooting. CASCADE THE CASCADE OF EFFECTS OF GROUND BALANCE SETTING: In order to know what the ground balance setting is; flip momentarily to the gold program if you were in another mode. Electronic ferrite material and most "negative hot rocks" (cold rocks) will usually read in the 75-88 range. Most soils will read somewhat lower. Readings will almost never go below 25 except in salt or moist alkali soils. When readings indicate smaller numbers than 50 you may notice some reduction in sensitivity. Below 35, some rusty iron may give unpredictable responses. Below 25, iron objects may give unpredictable responses and/or may disappear entirely and the sound on nonferrous objects may become slightly more abrupt. MANY THANKS To Kenneth White and Alan Holcombe for having sufficient confidence in me to put food on my table through the good times and the rough times on this project. To Jimmy Sierra for having the patience to argue with me about all the stuff that needed arguing about, for being so passionate about the need for this product, and for being willing to compromise when that's what it took to keep the project moving. To Larry and Sue Sallee, for their personal hospitality and for field testing prototypes. To Keith Zorger, Randy Smith, Mike Brighty who field-tested and helped develop the MXT. To Bob Canaday, for being such a competent technical/engineering liaison, doing a lot of not glorious but necessary work well and managing the project during its sometimes difficult phases. To Rick Maulding, for overseeing the project, for technical contributions to the discriminator and to the salt system, and for committing White's engineering department's finest minds to engineering review during the "slow SAT isn't hot enough" crisis, which led to a major system revision that made the whole machine better. To John Earle and Dan Geyer, for diligently hacking away at problems until they became non-problems. To Steve Howard and Pam Godell of White's. There were other people involved in this project whose contact was primarily or exclusively with White's and not with me. The risk of printing credits is that one may inadvertently omit a name that belongs there; so, if I missed someone whose name belongs on this list, I'm sorry, it was an unintentional oversight. - D.E.J. P/N 621-0468 published 8/2002 by White's Electronics
  9. You are probably just taking pity on all the pictures posted of small U.S. and New Zealand gold. Surely nobody in Oz bothers with anything that weighs under a pound! Very nice looking gold.
  10. Good job! You can in theory find gold almost anywhere modern humanity frequents. The jewelry needs to get lost in the first place, and that means places where clothing is changed and highly physical activity takes place. A soccer field is the classic example because the team often sheds street clothing on the sidelines. The soccer play itself plus possible viewers around the perimeter all add up to a great location. Gold can be as close as the nearest park, and often more gold can be found with less effort and expense than chasing gold nuggets.
  11. Nice find Norm! Could not quite read it so enhanced the photo a little.... Deputy Fish & Game Commissioner 1911
  12. The quickest way to get from point A to point B as regards manufacturers and coils is to look at existing housings. It is new machining and molds that slows stuff down and adds costs, so any time an existing mold can be used it really helps make the sales pitch. In this case Minelab has an existing 6" concentric for the X-Terra that could be easily converted. I am not holding my breath however.
  13. Released 9/13/2018, the version Deus 5.2 Update solves some bugs and improves the connectivity between coils, remote control and headphones. NOTE: The HF and X35 coils do not need to be updated at the moment, so they will be ignored during the DEUS software UPDATE. 8/2/2018 – Version 5.1 improves the connectivity between DEUS and the MI-6 Pinpointer as well as the connection speed. Latest Deus V5 Instruction Manual http://www.xpmetaldetectors.com/metal-detector/deus-update/
  14. One thing I always found fascinating at Chisana was the effort expended to bring water to bench locations - gold bearing areas far above the current stream area. The terrain is steep, and the bedrock is fractured to great depth. This made ditches a poor solutions for much of the area, and wooden boxes or "flumes" had to be constructed to carry water to the desired mining areas. Just getting the lumber to the site was a major undertaking. The gold bearing creeks are well above treeline. That being the case the lumber was whipsawed in the valley below then pulled by horses to the valleys above. More impressive was the engineering feats involved. The flume would start far upstream at creek level and then follow a more gentle grade than the creek itself, eventually bringing water miles downstream and hundreds of feet above the current stream level. In the process gullies were bridged and the entire structure built across cliff faces. Most of the old flume system is gone or in serious disrepair, but sections remain to tell the tale. Click on images for larger views.... View down lower Little Eldorado Creek - flume high on hill in distance Closer look at flume above mouth of Little Eldorado Creek And closer yet... Upper Bonanza view of flume system - much of the wood has been scavenged over the years Flume crossing cliff areas Detail of flume construction Flume winding around the terrain The old flume system close up To be continued...
  15. The pictures above have been corrected. Nokta Anfibio waterproof metal detector
  16. From https://www.ebay.com/itm/Minelab-Equinox-600-800-Arm-Cuff-Cover-Nylon-Covered-Neoprene-USA-Made-/123240175927
  17. That was a good deal at $284 - at $149 it is a steal, literally less than the price of a single coil. The 10" round DD stock coil is a great all rounder. The concentric "donut" coil will give better ferrous identification of things like bottle caps, an edge for depth on mild ground (popular with white sand beach hunters), and easier pinpointing. The 10" x 5.5" elliptical DD is a good nugget hunting coil or will offer slightly better trash separation than the stock coil in really trashy ground. The round concentric is lighter than the stock 10” DD which makes for a nicer detector on the arm. The trade is the concentric coil is bouyant and therefore not as good for use in the water. I am not sure where the elliptical DD fits in as far as weight and balance etc but I am guessing it falls somewhere in the middle. White's MX Sport waterproof metal detector
  18. Now that Nokta and Makro are moving even further into merging both product lines we have some significant overlap here. Makro Kruzer Multi - 5, 14, and 20 kHz ($749) Nokta Anfibio Multi - 5, 14, and 20 kHz ($$$$) Makro 14 Kruzer - 14 kHz ($649) Nokta Anfibio 14 - 14 kHz (????) Makro Gold Kruzer - 61 kHz ($749 two coils) Nokta Anfibio 19 - 19 kHz (????) Interesting that the Gold Kruzer is 61 kHz whereas the Nokta 19 "gold detector" is 19 kHz. That makes the Makro Gold Kruzer more of a waterproof version of the 56 kHz Makro Gold Racer. The Nokta Anfibio 19 is more a direct replacement of the 19 kHz Nokta FORS Gold+ Nokta Anfibio versus Makro Kruzer
  19. Nokta Anfibio Multi waterproof metal detector Nokta Anfibio Multi Display Nokta Anfibio 14 Display Nokta Anfibio 19 Display
  20. Three different models.... Anfibio Multi - 5, 14, and 20 kHz Anfibio 19 Relic & Gold Hunter - 19 kHz Anfibio 14 Coin Hunter - 14 kHz New Nokta Anfibio metal detector series
  21. You can always give it a go and roll back so no risk involved. This is everyone's chance to play at product tester - yup, this is how it is done. Test this version, test that version, which is better and why? Different folks, different opinions. You can see how it might get interesting for the engineers.
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