Ws4 And Changing Reactivity

[palzynski]

11 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

Steve, still learning here, so I defer to you who have forgotten more than I'll ever know about detecting.  So I will gladly take any corrections to any misconceptions I have stated below.

...Palzynski is stating that the greater small target separation behavior he sees with higher operating frequency is the result of greater recovery speed, when in reality, I believe he is simply perceiving the natural tendency to for higher operating frequencies to resolve smaller targets better resulting in greater separation in trash.  The recovery speed of the Deus is not actually changing, and it is important to make this distinction because of the fact that you can actually change the recovery speed of the Deus via the reactivity setting (the parameter that Tom was having trouble adjusting on his headphone controller).  It could be misinterpreted by users that adjusting the frequency of the Deus will result in an automatic adjustment of the reactivity parameter (that is how I originally interpreted Palyzynski's post) which is absolutely not the case. The reactivity setting on Deus will remain fixed if you adjust frequency even though small target separation may be enhanced.  Operating frequency and recovery speed (reactivity) are independently adjustable parameters.  It is an important distinction on Deus because switching programs can result in wholesale changes in multiple user parameters including frequency and reactivity (as well as tones, sensitivity, disc, and other important parameters).  

...Anyway, I think Palzynski is taking advantage of a beneficial characteristic of higher frequency operation, higher resolution (and therefor, target separation) on smaller targets but that does not mean the recovery speed of the machine is actually increased when operating at higher frequencies [although I remain open to the fact that this may be indeed the case, just have never seen it documented and I know for a fact that the reactivity setting does not change with frequency].  As with just about anything detector related, there are pros and cons to any approach like this.  We spoke of the pros.  Palzynski's approach will not result in the greatest possible impact on target separation but if it works well enough that is all that matters and Pal is getting good results.  The separation effect is much more pronounced through direct manipulation of the Deus "reactivity" parameter, though.  Furthermore, it may be disadvantageous in some cases to increase frequency due to the adverse impacts on the ability to detect high conductive targets at depth, so if more separation is desired without having to change frequency, then tweaking the reactivity parameter directly would be more desirable.  Just different ways to skin a cat.  Use whatever works and requires the least effort, shifting frequency is a good quick and dirty method to boost separation, especially on a detector without an independent recovery speed adjustment.

On Deus, I set up adjacent programs to one another that vary certain key parameters such as both frequency AND reactivity and toggle back and forth between those programs when interrogating iffy targets to see how the target responds to the changes in those key parameters, which is often very illuminating.

Anyway, never at a loss for words, that is my take on the issue. 

Yes this frequency change method is not documented , I just learnt it in the field and perhaps from other Deus local users, I do not remember actually because I have been using this trick for several years now ....  For example I have an area which is a big old roman site which is littered with old iron nails , may be one every 10cms. If you run the Deus HF on the Deus fast mode at 14khz there you will find almost nothing there . If you change to 30khz you will start to hit small or very small coins the results are far better  ..

In addition to this "natural" faster recovery /speed, as you said using higher freqs increases the detector sensitivity to small targets , and this is exactly what is remaining in this area , small or very small coins among thousands of nails.. They are all shallow targets so loosing depth is not a pb here , and the 30k freq still goes deep on small and medium coins vs the 14k freq.

Probably I did not use the right words , I do not know where it comes from actually , reactivity or detector analysis speed + sensitivity increasement on small targets ? , but the fact is that I find much more in iron trash at 30 than at 14khz.  

I have given this freq change "recipe" to a friend that also has a Deus HF , he is very happy with this and has excellent results. One day I will post some of his finds , which are really impressive ..

This Deus freq change method is very simple , no need to program the Deus , just use the factory Deus fast or GMP mode and change the frequency ... As I do not like to spend time programming things this is just perfect for me ... ? 

BTW thanks for this info concerning the WS4 reactivity setting , I did not know that this setting was existing on the WS4  version 5...

 

[Jeff McClendon]

15 hours ago, Tometusns said:

Oh goodness! It's awful to get old..well it does have a few draw backs but anyways Chase I zoomed in on the manual and it sure does say hold 2 sec. on the menu button NOT the minus button..?oops! Thanks so much for your input!

You are doing better than me. I have to zoom in on the manual and then magnify the actual WS4 to see what I am doing. Those Version 5 extra settings are great by the way.

[Chase Goldman]

2 hours ago, palzynski said:

In addition to this "natural" faster recovery /speed, as you said using higher freqs increases the detector sensitivity to small targets , and this is exactly what is remaining in this area , small or very small coins among thousands of nails.. They are all shallow targets so loosing depth is not a pb here , and the 30k freq still goes deep on small and medium coins vs the 14k freq.

Probably I did not use the right words , I do not know where it comes from actually , reactivity or detector analysis speed + sensitivity increasement on small targets ? , but the fact is that I find much more in iron trash at 30 than at 14khz.  

Yes, I think the issue here is just terminology.  As I stated in the post you quoted, higher frequencies tend to resolve smaller targets better which translates into better target separation - a well known/documented effect of using higher frequencies.  Increasing recovery speed (reactivity) also improves target separation.  Both have a slight impact on target detection at depth (for different reasons - but the point is that there are always tradeoffs between depth and target separation).  Coil design and dimensions also play a role in both target separation and depth as well. 

What I think is happening is that you are perceiving the improved separation due to higher frequency the same way you would perceive separation due to increased recovery speed/reactivity and those are two separate things.  The higher frequency results in more target separation - yes, but not because the recovery speed of the detector has changed, it is because of the favorable electromagnetic effects of using the smaller wavelength associated with a higher frequency to "excite" the target's electromagnetic field.  This effect is well documented in metal detecting basics.  I mistook your original post literally as saying that increasing frequency actually changes the reactivity setting on the Deus (a possible undocumented feature that I was not aware of), when in fact it does not change reactivity.  That was my only point.

2 hours ago, palzynski said:

have given this freq change "recipe" to a friend that also has a Deus HF , he is very happy with this and has excellent results. One day I will post some of his finds , which are really impressive ..

This Deus freq change method is very simple , no need to program the Deus , just use the factory Deus fast or GMP mode and change the frequency ... As I do not like to spend time programming things this is just perfect for me ... ? 

I don't like to spend time programming the Deus either - what I was referring to was saving two or more "clone" Deus fast programs in the program slots with the only difference between the two programs being frequency and/or reactivity.  That way you just have to press the +/- buttons to change frequency (and/or reactivity) without having to dive into the program menus (two or more button presses) to change frequency when in the field.  Great time saver while detecting.

[palzynski]

6 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

Yes, I think the issue here is just terminology.  As I stated in the post you quoted, higher frequencies tend to resolve smaller targets better which translates into better target separation - a well known/documented effect of using higher frequencies.  Increasing recovery speed (reactivity) also improves target separation.  Both have a slight impact on target detection at depth (for different reasons - but the point is that there are always tradeoffs between depth and target separation).  Coil design and dimensions also play a role in both target separation and depth as well. 

 

ok I understand better now  , my sentence "As I said in an other thread when you change the frequency on a Deus/Orx it changes the recovery speed of the detector" is  confusing ... Of course there is not change of the reactivity parameter when increasing the freq , I just meant that the Deus was faster and much better in iron trash when increasing the freq  ... Sorry for the misunderstanding ..