Garrett Axiom Just Old Technology? I Saw This Posted ....

[Rob Allison]

Hey All,

   It was brought to my attention from a friend, that the new Garrett Axiom is just old Minelab technology.  I really didn't know how to answer this question, when it was asked.  Someone (name not listed) posted this on a social media, so myself and other customers are curious on the validity of it?

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I also am a Garrett dealer and for those that do not know Minelab sold their older Pulse Induction patents to Whites then Garrett acquired Whites and used Minelab’s older technology to make the Axiom. I have nothing bad to say about it and it is a great entry level PI detector.

I'm not sure what Ultra Pulse Technology really is, beyond Garrett's PI version or technology.  Curious mind would like to know .... 

 

[Aureous]

Not 100% sure, but sounds utterly ridiculous. Ive never known Minelab to sell ANY IP to ANYONE. The Whites TDI was a single channel, single voltage PI. It was a modified Eric Foster design and nothing to do with ML. Whites had nothing else PI-wise on the drawing board before their closure (Carl Moreland would assist in this) as far as anyone has heard.

What IS CERTAIN, All of Minelab's older PI patents have now expired (MPS and DVT- you don't see those acronyms on any ML detector label anymore), and this is why Garrett can finally make a dual channel, dual voltage, fast sampling PI detector....FINALLY. Unless some out-of-character strange 'Secret Squirrel' deal was made behind closed doors, I see this "IP sale to Whites' idea as being extremely unlikely.

[Steve Herschbach]

Whatever. You can bet the vested interests will be out in force, people you never heard from will appear to post. I will say that the person involved in this is at best confused. What they are not is accurate. And I love this. "I have nothing bad to say about it and it is a great entry level PI detector." What a typical sly dog type statement, saying you are saying nothing bad while implying just the opposite. My bet would be a multi line dealer, looking to up sell customers into the most expensive model they can.

White's licensed the TDI pulse rights from Eric Foster, not Minelab. I can say that with certainly since I helped facilitate the deal. The TDI is basically an improved Goldscan. White's did actually license the base multi patent from Minelab to create the Beachhunter ID and DFX. But as VLF that has no relation to this and is long expired in any case.

But even if it was tech licensed to White's and then acquired by Garrett, so what? It's just the same old BS, trying to make something of nothing. Companies cross license constantly. All that matters is how well the Axiom works. But again, there will be plenty of stuff show up from people hiding behind fake names or no names. Sometimes this business has a dark side, and some people no morals or scruples at all when money is involved.

Long story short Garrett begat the Infinium, which begat the ATX, which begat the Axiom. All three are dual channel by the way, Axiom is not Garrett's first nor derived from MPS. It's their own stuff developed over nearly 20 years. It's that simple. But hey, now people will say oh, it's just a digital Infinium, can't be any good, blah, blah, blah. Just people mouthing off trying to bring something down without ever having laid hands on it. Everything designed builds on what came before, that's how it works. My Subaru is derived from the Model T, well darn, how sad is that! 

Hopefully people can see though this kind of red herring smokescreen nonsense for what it is.

What if Nokta takes an old expired Minelab patent and gives us a sleek modern improved version at a great price? I'm sure that would be made out to be some sort of crime, but expired patents are fair game, and new players can often take what somebody discarded, and make it better. More power to them.

As far as tech goes, I’m not aware of any super duper whiz bang new acronyms being involved. Just taking what they did with ATX and improving on it. If people want to turn a blind eye to the Axiom because of that, no skin off my nose. Go buy a Minelab and be happy. Does anyone except those making a buck off sales really care one way or the other? I don’t.

Just ignore all the deflection sure to come, and pay attention only to the people that are buying the Axiom with their money and reporting on it. That's who gets to decide if the Axiom is any good or not - the people buying it.

The real zoo will get started any minute now, with the this versus that videos. Somebody will bury a nugget, and say "oh, see" without going into all the other factors involved. Lets see some heavy EMI tests. Some serious hot rock tests. Some salt ground tests. Some "how well does this work in a trashy area tests." The whole picture, not just the tiny part of the picture somebody wants us to focus on.

EDIT 2/3/2023 - A interview with Steve Moore of Garrett, that answers some of this stuff directly.

[TE Gold]

As a consumer, I do not care who did what behind the scenes.  I care about a good product at a fair price.

If that product is from company x y or z, is irrelevant to me. Now we know that some companies make great products, however, they are over priced. If a competing company can do a similar product at a better price, why wouldn't you consider it? Loyalty? ......

[matt]

3 hours ago, Rob Allison said:

Hey All,

   It was brought to my attention from a friend, that the new Garrett Axiom is just old Minelab technology.  I really didn't know how to answer this question, when it was asked.  Someone (name not listed) posted this on a social media, so myself and other customers are curious on the validity of it?

I'm not sure what Ultra Pulse Technology really is, beyond Garrett's PI version or technology.  Curious mind would like to know .... 

 

Weak.

[Rob Allison]

Hey Steve,

   I didn't think their was much truth in it, but it was a legitimate question that was brought to my attention from others.  I was directed to the original post on a social media site.  I'm impressed with the Garrett Axiom and know it's not some old Minelab SD or GP technology from the performance.  I figured with your knowledge and involvement with many different manufactures the truth would be told quickly.  

Thanks for your detailed explanation of Garrett.  I wasn't a super huge fan of the Infinium for gold nugget hunting, the ATX was better, but way too heavy in my opinion, but I believe Garrett hit the Axiom out of the park @ $3995.00.  

A few customers are using one at a mine site and they are impressed with it's sensitivity to quartz/gold using Monoloop.

Rob

 

[Steve Herschbach]

Hey Rob,

Yeah, the question is legitimate, just not the original social media post that created the question in the first place. But that was probably the goal all along, to cast an aspersion in some way, true or not.

All that matters is if users are impressed or not. Honestly, most people are expecting a digital Infinium, and that’s just fine. I’ve gone out of my way to not inflate expectations, as it serves no purpose and gets found out in the end. I’d rather people are pleasantly surprised than disappointed.

[Aureous]

TBH Steve, I'm genuinely surprised that you say both the Infinium and the ATX are dual channel PI's.....I've never seen that published on any Garrett website, maybe I missed it or maybe its more 'secret squirrel' stuff. In fact a great many years ago, a certain Garrett exec who came to Oz when the Infinium was released here stated publicly that it was only a single channel machine. Doesn't really matter much now either way, coz the Axiom is the focus of our attention. The older units can now gracefully fade away into obscurity lol.

[phrunt]

I think the marketing for the ATX might give it away.

Maximum Detection on all targets at the same time. No need to switch modes to enhance detection of one target while degrading another.

Here for marketing they call it a multi frequency PI on the NZ websites.

[Steve Herschbach]

5 hours ago, Aureous said:

TBH Steve, I'm genuinely surprised that you say both the Infinium and the ATX are dual channel PI's.....I've never seen that published on any Garrett website, maybe I missed it or maybe its more 'secret squirrel' stuff. In fact a great many years ago, a certain Garrett exec who came to Oz when the Infinium was released here stated publicly that it was only a single channel machine. Doesn't really matter much now either way, coz the Axiom is the focus of our attention. The older units can now gracefully fade away into obscurity lol.

Yup, big secret. I’ve been posting the link to the above since 2015 every time the subject comes up.  From a technical perspective the “tell” is in the audio. A single channel device like the TDI or Fisher Impulse is a single tone response, high tone, or low tone, depending on where the ground balance is set, and whether the response is above or below the ground balance setting. Dual tone devices give you a dual tone, hi/lo or lo/hi, again, depending on where the dual channels are set. Dual channels were developed not because they are more powerful per se, but to fill the dreaded PI hole. Depth of detection and sensitivity is more related to other things in the circuit design, not the mere fact of whether it is dual channel or not. Dual channel processing is simply the PI method most analogous to multifrequency in a VLF. Just being multifrequency does not automatically make a VLF better than the single frequency cousin, unless other factors are done right also. See White’s DFX vs CTX 3030 for the parallel example. DFX is the Infinium of multi, the CTX the GPZ.

It all matters as much as what going on inside my iPhone. Either it works or it does not. The Infinium proves there is more to it than just being dual channel or not. ATX was better, and Axiom is better yet. As far as where the Axiom fits in the scheme of things, it sells for more than a GPX 5000 or SDC 2300, and less than a GPX 6000 and GPZ 7000. I’d be calling the 5000 and SDC mid-range models, the Axiom and 6000 upper mid range, and 7000 top end. The White’s TDI and Infinium both were true actual entry level devices, ATX lower mid-range.