Garrett Apex Superfly Air Test

[kac]

On most the Garrett VLF's you need to factory reset so best to power it off, change the coil then reset. Not sure if that is the same rule on the Apex but should be listed somewheres. Definate no no on pi's to change while the machine is on.

[Mike305]

 

Hey guys,

Thank you for the replies.  Appreciate the advice/info...

On 5/25/2021 at 11:20 PM, kac said:

Having a couple of Nel coils the Nel Big and Superfly, I think Nel did a great job on the Superfly. Depth difference between the Ultimate 13 and a Superfly at 12" should be nearly unoticeable but weight difference is big. If your banging around in the woods or where there are obstructions the Ultimate would be tougher.

The Detech I'm considering is the 11.5" in the video, so very close to the NEL Super Fly in size but the NEL is 50g lighter I believe.  I also have a couple NEL coils I've used on my Sovereign GT and like them.  Detech only came into the picture because of the video.  There are no obstructions on the beaches I hunt unless you count the black sand, copius amounts of iron debris, and the carpet of can slaw:)  I was happy with the stock Viper coil until I saw this video and tested my Apex.  If a different/wider coil can do a better job identifying items on edge, I'm interested. 

On 5/26/2021 at 1:44 AM, Chase Goldman said:

Switch to single frequency on the fly and see if the iffy, potential on-edge target ID resolves itself into a dig me signal.

On edge the TID's were solidly in the iron range, so I wouldn't even hear them as an iffy signal.  I normally hunt in MS, Zero with iron audio off by default.  Sometimes I switch to Custom 50+ and cherry-pick when I'm in an area thick with can slaw.  Either way I won't hear iron at all.  That said, I did air test the different frequencies and all of the coins gave good TID's on edge at 5khz.  Your theory proved correct, but I doubt I'll be hunting in 5khz.

On 5/26/2021 at 1:44 AM, Chase Goldman said:

Also  you never mentioned if the ferrous ID remained consistent even after you turned 90 degrees on the target.

I was swinging the coins/rings oriented inline with the coil, but just tried turning them perpendicular to the coil.  The target ID's generally drop, but not into iron range.  All diggable signals.

On 5/26/2021 at 1:46 AM, GB_Amateur said:

How far away from the coil were you swiping the coins?  Which orientation(s) when on edge?  What do you mean by 1-33 and 0 for digital TID's?  Did you get any high tones with coins on edge or were they always iron grunts?

I was swinging 4-6 inches away.  1-33 means the TID was not stable, but stayed within that range without exception (no high tones).

[Chase Goldman]

1 hour ago, Mike305 said:

On edge the TID's were solidly in the iron range, so I wouldn't even hear them as an iffy signal.  I normally hunt in MS, Zero with iron audio off by default. 

I don't use an Apex, but when beach hunting with my Equinox I like to hunt AM and let my brain do the discriminating.  If you really want to have a better shot with on edge rings, adjusting your settings and learning how to rotate on and interrogate targets is key.  A coil is not necessarily going to get you there.  The other key is listening for targets that intermittently pop non-ferrous audio (easier on a 50-tone machine but it works on 5 tones as well).  Try using iron volume at a low setting and giving that a shot to see if the edge on rings give an audio response that is different than pure ferrous.  Those are the signals you can interrogate further with 5 khz or just scoop them.  I get that you probably don't want to run in other than SMF in wet sand and surf.  But you should be able to run 5khz in the dry sand (I know, fewer rings there) where SMF or MF is really unnecessary.  HTH.

[GB_Amateur]

1 hour ago, Mike305 said:

I was swinging the coins/rings oriented inline with the coil, but just tried turning them perpendicular to the coil.  The target ID's generally drop, but not into iron range.  All diggable signals.

That's a very important (new) piece of evidence and reduces the concern.  It would be interesting if someone were to measure the angle at which the all-ferrous / some non-ferrous break occurs.

An on-edge coin with its plane coincident with (i.e. containing) the coil swing path is the most difficult orientation for any(?) detector.  I recall Randy Horton's advice on searching at the sidewalk-to-sod/dirt transition in his Understanding Your X-Terra monograph which is downloadable here.  Maybe Garrett can alter the software and issue an installable upgrade, but sometimes fixing these rare(r) occurring anomalies is a bit like trying to accomodate for unicorns and run the risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  (How's that for a couple of cliche's?  😏)

[Mike305]

18 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

If you really want to have a better shot with on edge rings, adjusting your settings and learning how to rotate on and interrogate targets is key.  A coil is not necessarily going to get you there.  The other key is listening for targets that intermittently pop non-ferrous audio (easier on a 50-tone machine but it works on 5 tones as well).  Try using iron volume at a low setting and giving that a shot to see if the edge on rings give an audio response that is different than pure ferrous.  Those are the signals you can interrogate further with 5 khz or just scoop them.  

I hear what you're saying Chase, but the scenario in this case is rings/coins ID'ing purely as iron...and not popping non-ferrous.  The beaches I hunt are black sand and  littered with iron debris large and small.  If I turn on iron audio, it is absolutely constant and not useful.  If anything pops non-ferrous I'll hear it with iron audio off.  By the way, your advice leading me to 5khz is appreciated.  I tried it this morning and it was more stable than expected.  It did false occasionally, but not nearly as bad as I expected.  I'll continue to play with it.

19 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

That's a very important (new) piece of evidence and reduces the concern.  It would be interesting if someone were to measure the angle at which the all-ferrous / some non-ferrous break occurs.

My tests were far from a controlled scientific study, but when the ring/coin was inline with the coil I rotated it to see when it would switch to a non-ferrous signal and it was near horizontal.  It is a challenge for detectors, but the chances of encountering on edge...or not fully horizontal...items is high where I hunt.  If a different coil can do a better job, I'll make the switch.  I'm not convinced a new coil will resolve the issue, but it doesn't hurt to investigate the possibility.  No harm done except to my wallet:)  Silver makes my day, so I hate to think I'm missing stuff.  Thank you for the link to the Xterra guide.  I'll give it a read.  Also agree...maybe Garrett can tweak something via an update, hopefully without adverse (whack a mole) consequences.  I won't hold my breath though...apart from Thrace, I haven't seen anyone reporting this as an issue....yet.

[kac]

Having just a single selectable frequeny machine here dropping to 5khz may help on some of the chatter but have a feeling you will do better keeping it in multi frequency. Larger coil isn't going to give you better target recognition and may be worse with targets on edge.

I have a Superfly and use it at the beach and have found the stock coil does a bit better in sensitivity vs the wider coil but the difference isn't enough for me to swap them out. Black sand with a vlf is horrible, there are a couple beaches here where a vlf is just useless and I end up using my PI at a cost of digging everything I hear within reason.

Though I don't have an Apex to give you an idea on depth difference on my Multi Kruzer from stock 8" wide coil to the 12" wide coil I gain about 2" on average. In the case of the Multi Kruzer the Superfly is a bit more stable maybe because it is better shielded or just that slight bit less sensitive but the MK seems to perform better with it in general. So couple inches deeper at the same weight as stock it was worth it for me.

Still wish George would tell us what he thinks.

[Mike305]

Thanks kac for your thoughts on the Super Fly.  I'll likely go with the NEL b/c I know them to be well made...and it's the lightest.  We'll see what happens.

[kac]

Post what you think on it if you get it. Like to see how it does in the field.

[JCR]

I see on another Garrett thread that introduces a larger coil for the Apex; a 11X14 DD called the Reaper.  If they bring it out for the current AT series I will probably get one.

[kac]

Wonder how much the 11x14 weighs?