Input Requested: What Are The Major Federal Oversteps Or Abuses With Mining Today?

[klunker]

  YIKES!!!

jasong;

I don't know where to start on this topic and once I get started there is no place to stop. To restrict me from offering an opinion here is like saying I can't have dill pickles with my ice cream. Does the Code of Federal Regulations Supersede the 1872 Mining Law? Do Forest Rules Supersede the 1872 Act and CFRs? 

  I have a long history of working with the USFS in timber and mining so If your looking for something a bit more specific I would be pleased to help but you might have to endure some of my opinions and I would have to describe the particular situations (anecdotal) to make any sense.

 And I promise not to rant or b#%*h.

[1515Art]

Go to AMRA home page. Watch the video of forest service agent Clint , trying to shut down dredgers in Idaho...making stuff up on the fly . Shannon Poe schooled him.

I joined amra the other day, that video is pretty amazing, the one where the Forrest service agent is trying to prevent the club raffle under the grounds of conducting business on federal land without a permit is also another example of stretching a well intended regulation beyond reason.

https://americanminingrights.com/videos/

[1515Art]

YIKES!!!

jasong;

I don't know where to start on this topic and once I get started there is no place to stop. To restrict me from offering an opinion here is like saying I can't have dill pickles with my ice cream. Does the Code of Federal Regulations Supersede the 1872 Mining Law? Do Forest Rules Supersede the 1872 Act and CFRs?

I have a long history of working with the USFS in timber and mining so If your looking for something a bit more specific I would be pleased to help but you might have to endure some of my opinions and I would have to describe the particular situations (anecdotal) to make any sense.

And I promise not to rant or b#%*h.

How about ice cream with jalapeño, that's not a bad combination kinda like a klunker rant, a little spicy and it gets ya there quick and satisfied... I must say jalapeño and vanilla ice cream is pretty good.

[Reno Chris]

I'm especially interested if such a regulation is in violation of the General Mining Act of 1872.

 

There are very few actions that actually violate laws - they are careful of that. However the law gives them latitude to do a lot. Can MSHA regulate a guy out metal detecting if he sometimes sells his finds? Yes, under the law they can. Its a really, really stupid oversight in the law, but yes, they can regulate you. Can the president declare every acre of Forrest Service and BLM land as a monument, conservation area or other special designation, thereby nullifying the 1872 mining law (because there would be no more claimable land) - why yes he can, because the law allows it. Is it totally stupid? Of course, but its no violation of the law. Can the Forrest Service and BLM require thousands of dollars of permits for the tiniest disturbance of the land? Yep, because the law gives them the authority, allows wide and vague interpretation and they write those rules anyway. Can the Forrest Service and BLM shut down all sorts of roads accessing public lands? Yes, the law allows them to shut down lots of types of roads and they commonly over-reach to shut down roads that they do not have authority over, but if you want to protest, you need to take them to court. Some states are doing just that, but few citizens have the money for court battles.

Additionally, the mining law of 1872 has been revised many times. Those revisions are the law. While its true some of the 1872 law still stands, you've lost all sorts of rights originally granted to you on public lands under that law, and yes, congress has the right to change or modify existing laws.

 

Does the Code of Federal Regulations Supersede the 1872 Mining Law? Do Forest Rules Supersede the 1872 Act and CFRs?

The agencies do not have direct authority to contradict federal law approved by congress and signed by the president. However it is very common that congress will direct the agencies to write laws that do "something" - and in so far as they write CFR regulations to do that, they can effectively change older laws (it is normal that congress does not actually write laws that do much any more, they direct the agencies to write the laws for them because they are lazy and too busy lining their pockets with cash). So lets say as an example, congress tells the agencies to write some CFR regulations to protect endangered species. The agencies now have authorization to protect endangered species within the structure of the law. If in protecting the species that eliminates your rights to mine that were granted under other laws, sorry - you lose. They have the right to supersede your mining efforts when they are protecting endangered species. The direction from congress to write CFR to protect endangered species is considered a revision to the previously existing laws of congress.  In addition to protecting species, the agencies are directed to control air and water pollution, prevent degradation of federal lands, preserve Indian and other historical sites, manage resources, etc., etc. All sorts of things, and those authorizations give them the authorization to limit, restrict or even eliminate mining in some cases.

 

Its a wonder that there is any mining happening now in this country - and probably before I pass on to God's great gold rush in the sky, there will be a lot less mining than is going on now. Lets all be 100% dependent on China and a bunch of unstable 3rd world countries for all the things we need! Isn't it great?, We have have crippled our country and eliminated thousands of jobs, but we have protected some worm that no one ever sees! Hooray!

 

Sorry for the rant, but these comments do answer your questions.

[Clay Diggins]

I own a 10 foot pole but I decided to pass on this thread anyway until I saw your post Chris.

You get it! Thank you for making the facts concise and to the point. Have you considered writing about mining issues?

Barry

[mn90403]

Jason,

You have asked for comments based upon government regulations and the effects that it has on the mining industry.  Of course those are great and the basis for our lawsuits and objections to the BLM, Forest Service and other agencies cited.

There are other, perhaps more controlling laws than those issued by the government.  Those are the laws of economic reality (profit and loss).

I started going to Gold Basin in 2011 to look for gold.  My drive was from Santa Monica where I live and I made this trip several times.  I joined GPAA and started hearing about the mining claims and regulations that controlled the land where I was prospecting.  Miners seemed to be mostly against the BLM but I didn't know why.

While taking this trip at odd times of the day and night I noticed that a place just off the interstate (Mountain Pass) was going 'gangbusters' with activity.  Many new buildings were being made, earth was being moved and thousands of workers were all over Whisky Pete's at Stateline, Nevada.  Something was being mined and I didn't know what it was.  I didn't look it up to understand the project at the time.  As it turned out the project was about rare earths.

The project was Molycorp's Mountain Pass mine.  It became a multi-billion dollar project to extract rare earth metals from deposits in San Bernardino County.  Many of the deposits were on company land but there are also mining claims on BLM land surrounding the project.  (I'm sure there is someone here who knows a lot more about this project than I do.  They may have been an investor or a worker there.)

The company was 'allowed' to make a massive project involving public and private lands as stated here: 

http://www.techmetalsresearch.com/2011/10/is-this-the-site-of-molycorps-new-heavy-rare-earth-prospect/

Why was this economically feasible at the time?  There was a price bubble on rare earths.  Prices were high.  Supplies were stated to be low.  Time to build a new mine.  The budget says 'go for it' and we have investors!

Fast forward to last year:

http://www.hcn.org/articles/the-u-s-s-only-rare-earth-mine-files-bankruptcy

The reasons the company went bankrupt was that more supplies of rare earths have been found, many of them are cheaper to extract, the prices for rare earths dropped even as they were building the new mine and engineers redesigned products that require the rare earths.  This doomed the company and the mining project.

Based upon everything I have read the company got all of the government approvals that it needed to mine on a very large scale but it was unsuccessful because the economic laws caused it to run out of money.  In the end it did not make economic sense or cents!

[Sourdough Scott]

Just ordered a book. The 1872 mining rights. Part of the proceeds go to AMRA.

[tvanwho]

ok, am I reading this right?As long as you mine gold but don't sell it, they cannot enforce their rules against you? What if you are on private ground , not federal land? And what about bartering, as in trade the gold for food, vehicles, etc...?

Almost makes me wanna move outta the county when I retire? Heck, who are we to conserve endangered species anyway? Species come and go all the time it would seem...

[Steve Herschbach]

It is possible that what you do never rises above the level of casual use Tom and so none of this may apply to you. However, knowing and operating under the mining laws can afford you many benefits. If you wish to educate yourself on those laws, you can start at http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations.html

[Sourdough Scott]

The worst abuse is (IMHO) Is when good men sit idly by and do nothing. If you see an injustice, contact your legislators. Write letters. No more Slacktactivism!