Under 4 Pound, Under $2000 Gbpi Challenge

[jasong]

The thing I'm curious about moving forward, if we are still going to get new machines, is who exactly they are going to get to field test them now.

Steve has retired from testing. And these companies have made zero effort to try to contact any of the younger set of experienced detectorists, at least none that I know of, and most the detectorists I actively work with are under 50 years old now so I figured I'd have heard something by now. Maybe it's different in Australia? Or maybe they just have part timers testing? But it seems like Minelab is pretty much completely ignoring the needs/desires of the age set of users in the US that are going to soon become their prime demographic, as if intentionally. The only company that has really ever not felt like they were ignoring people under 50 was X Coils, who to me just seemed eager to get their products in anyone's hands that wanted to use them. 

I guess there is still JP but his silent absence leaves questions, no clue if he's testing machines or just lost patience with forums. I know in my case I've lost pretty much all my desire to post to the gold specific forum, but for my own reasons. 

My worry is that we are going to start seeing new releases from companies with little input from actual experienced field users. Who's Nokta getting to test? Maybe for an under $2k PI then whatever, but if it's for premium machines then this will be a massive let down to me if they start releasing pro-grade machines without putting them in the hands of people that know what they need for daily use, and are capable of identifying the quirks and errors that might seem tiny to an engineer but can be make or break for a daily prospector. Last thing I want is to drop big $ on another ML machine just to get some EMI crap that makes it literally unusable, despite less experienced people insisting it's normal or fine. If that happens again, I'm done and gone. 

 

[phrunt]

I think they need to expand their testing to a broader range of people in different countries, so many problems go unnoticed until the detectors are released.  This isn't to say the current testers were doing anything wrong I'm sure they do a fantastic job but detectors are being released to the public as a final product when they're not ready.   The 6000 with its self-generated EMI problem was an obvious one, the twisting shaft another.  Perhaps if they only had 10 people testing the 10 all received machines where the EMI wasn't exhibiting itself and their shafts happened to be good ones, maybe if they had 50 or more people testing then the problems may show themselves sooner.  Surely for detectors worth so much and so many sales expected having a good large group of testing people is viable.  Maybe they already do I don't know.  There are plenty of Detect-Spurts now that signed up to do that marketing role and maybe they do it.

The Manticore was the same, again released with problems like having ground issues for some, beach issues for others, small gold sensitivity problems all which went unnoticed until it hit the public then they're rushing to fix these things after the detector is out which can be damaging for sales.

I'm baffled how detectors get to market with problems as obvious as shaft twisting so I can only put it down to some shafts are worse than others and the limited number of testing units out there all ended up having quite good shafts but once in mass production the problem becomes evident so no amount of testing by the limited number of people doing it would show that up and if more were testing maybe it would show.

I would be their worst nightmare as a tester, I'd be complaining about everything I can think of, in hope of a better product at the end.  They'd regret having me test their machines and I would be rough with it too, it needs to be durable, I'd be trying to smash down bushes with my coil a bit like those Ikea test machines that crush down on chairs over and over again hundreds of thousands of times to replicate the use of the chair over its lifetime to ensure its durable enough.    They even have them on display in stores crushing down on the same chair for years proving its durable.  I'd find out if the GPX 6000 coils would have cracking ears long before public release like has happened.

Not that I would do it, I wouldn't like the responsibility of making sure the machine is perfect with so many people depending on me getting the job done right, and the fact I'm not qualified for the task outside of the build quality of the machine which anyone a bit rough could do 🙂 so greatest respect for those that do it and I guess they mostly lurk in the shadows as we have no idea for the most part who they are.

Nokta (Dilek) has enquired about who to be testers for their unit in the thread on it here, if you feel you're up to the task contact Dilek and volunteer Jason, I believe you'd be quite good at it as you're very critical and also a skilled user.

[jasong]

Not interested. My time and experience are valuable. If they want to pay me a reasonable wage for my time, gas, and experience then I'd be interested. Otherwise no thanks, and I already know what companies pay because I've declined a few of them already. 🙂

They want to pay a reasonable rate in return for time, experience, and gas, I might take those "opportunities" more seriously. But I'm not retired, my savings are not large, and that's only an opportunity to a person who has the means to essentially pay a company to work for them.

[Steve Herschbach]

People wonder why product testers don't find things that turn out to be problems later, overlooking the fact that companies often ignore tester feedback. If there are ten things you think need improving, good luck with getting more than a couple done.

If the Nokta or Fisher Impulse Gold was roughly equivalent to the Axiom but also fully submersible that would be enough to get my interest to the point where I might sell the Axiom to get one. I was on board to do testing for Nokta a year ago but for once they have been too slow and now I've lost interest. Like Jason notes, working for people for free is not all it's cracked up to be. Someday if either company has a finished product that I can buy I might get one but until then I will use what I have.

Maybe Gerry McMullen or Andy (abenson) would be interested in testing a new machine.

[phrunt]

1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

People wonder why product testers don't find things that turn out to be problems later, overlooking the fact that companies often ignore tester feedback. If there are ten things you think need improving, good luck with getting more than a couple done.

Thanks for pointing that out, Steve, as someone in the know you'd know more than anyone about this and having worked with many companies before you would really know how it works.  That's incredible they behave that way, what's the point in having testers if you don't listen to their results.   Hopefully Nokta is more responsive to their testers on their PI.   Maybe if they have a larger group of testers all reporting the same issues it may help over a small group.

I am hoping Minelab isn't using their new Youtube personalities as the only testers and getting rid of the previous testers that were highly skilled detector users going back decades.  If I had to pick who I'd want testing my machine I'd pick the likes of JP, Steve H, Nenad etc and not some guy with 100,000 followers on Youtube as people like his videos.  Minelab hopefully have learnt a lesson about ignoring feedback on the 6000, a very costly one.  In some parts of the World they aren't even doing the EMI Fix, they get replaced detectors, know this from a friend's experience.

Testing to me seems a very critical role, they should pay people to do it to get the best of the best, not just people wanting a free detector and a bit of a Youtube following by releasing information first.

 

 

 

 

[Steve Herschbach]

On 9/30/2023 at 11:03 AM, phrunt said:

Thanks for pointing that out, Steve, as someone in the know you'd know more than anyone about this and having worked with many companies before you would really know how it works.  That's incredible they behave that way, what's the point in having testers if you don't listen to their results.   Hopefully Nokta is more responsive to their testers on their PI.   Maybe if they have a larger group of testers all reporting the same issues it may help over a small group.

They listen. They have to decide if it’s worth the cost of making the change or not. Often cost in outright dollars but sometimes it's just the new delay it would involve. Use the 6000 rod twist as an example. It’s annoyance at worst, and lots of people never experience it or care if they do. It does not affect the actual detection capability. Spend money to change it, or let it be?

Or maybe you have an issue that may occur rarely. Do you just accept it as a cost under warranty for the few machines that experience the issue, or not?

Are we ahead of time and under budget? Or overdue and over budget? It all matters and some things get done, others don’t. Everyone has a different opinion of what is “good enough” and toss in some engineers thinking they know better than the end user what is best…. stuff happens or does not.

Whatever. I’m more grateful for what we get than for what we don’t get. Pretty amazing technology at this point compared to what I started with. That’s one of the fun things about age. I’ve seen revolutions in many things entirely in my lifetime. Where we are now with computers versus when I was a kid - simply amazing. Just one example of many, and detectors going from BFO to where we are now is another.

[Steve Herschbach]

So here we are seven years after I issued my challenge. I had no idea we would be waiting this long, though with technology it has always been a matter of when, not if. Garrett was my main hope but instead of quickly repackaging an ATX to take the prize years ago, they re-engineered the machine to win on weight but came in at twice the desired price. It was their game to lose and they lost it. My next hopes have been pinned first on Nokta and second on Fisher. Fisher has not given up on PI, at least not yet. The following news might change that.

Out of the blue we get a new company with a new detector, and it is ready to go right now! The AlgoForce E1500 has just been announced, and it looks like the detector that might finally take the prize. Priced at AUD $2275 or about U.S. $1500 but comes without a coil or power pack. It can use Minelab SD/GP/GPX coils and runs off any standard USB power brick.

The detector without coil or power pack weighs 840 grams or 1.9 lbs. A Nugget Finder 6x8 Mono "Sadie" coil weighs 500 grams. I'm going to assume a 500 gram power pack to get at least some semblance of balance, and if so that puts us right at 4 lbs. A larger power pack or battery or both could easily add another pound, but 4 lbs is possible.

Now the price at $1500 U.S. plus a Sadie coil sold in U.S. for $250 leaves plenty of room for a battery and or shipping to come in at or near the $2000 target price.

So folks, we may have a winner. The fact a longtime Minelab engineer is behind all this lends real credence to it being a performer. If it simply matched the Axiom on performance it will still blow it away for price and features, especially in Australia where the Axiom is overpriced compared to the U.S.

Anyway, I'm going to get one and find out. I have been an avid follower of metal detecting technology for over 50 years, and as a nerd tech type I always knew what I wanted and what was possible. The Minelab Equinox finally ticked off my desired VLF wish list to the point where I really didn't care what came after. Mission accomplished. But PI has been frustrating, and I was starting to wonder if I'd live long enough to see this happen. But if this is for real, and I think it is, it marks the dawn of a new age in PI detectors, of power, ergonomics, and affordability. Is the E1500 the Equinox of the PI world? If so it will set a new standard of what people expect and good luck selling detectors for over $8000 going forward. I think that dam just burst, thanks to AlgoForce.

AlgoForce E1500 Specifications and User Manuals

Visit the new AlgoForce Metal Detector Forum

65 cm or 25.6 inches

[phrunt]

From what I can see the manufacturer has listened, and gone even further than that, is willing to continuing listening to customers to further enhance it with firmware updates, they even suggest contacting them with features/fixes you want and they'll look into it.

By not including the coil they're giving a lower price while giving customers a choice, a choice is rare these days and their manual promotes aftermarket coils recommending certain aftermarket coils.  The powerbank again gives us choice, we can choose how much we want to pay, which brand and which capacity we want. 

I really think they've listened to complaints and gone with it.  

The only thing missing really is wireless audio, quickly resolved with a cheap Bluetooth LL transmitter and Avantee @Wiggins are working on new versions of this gear at the moment with LL, and in the future LE when it's ready enough.  Perfect timing by Avantee to take on making new Bluetooth gear for detecting.

 

[geof_junk]

As well as above there is a lot of standard coils that people have been forced to buy that are not used so the coil price for it will be low.

[Steve Herschbach]

AlgoForce E1500 Specifications and User Manuals

Visit the new AlgoForce Metal Detector Forum