Did Minelab Multi-iq Obsolete Single Frequency?

[Jeff McClendon]

 

17 minutes ago, stripes17 said:

Target price for smf detectors to make sf detectors disappear will be $200 which may eventually rise to $300+ due to inflation. Just speculating.  Go Find, Ace 150. Bounty Hunter, Fisher etc

Multi IQ SMF Minelab Vanquish 340 ($199) and 440 are already under $300 US.

[phrunt]

Yes, you're probably right although the Ace 150 is long discontinued replaced with the Ace 200 which is normally priced around $199 USD, the same price you can pick up SMF Vanquish 340.

The SMF's will penetrate the entry level market soon enough, the Simplex replacement I am betting will be a SMF just limited like the Vanquish was vs the Nox.

I think the Ace series will end up being the Apex, the other Ace models will be phased out over time or dropped back to just the Ace 400 at the Ace 200 price.  Competition is heating up.

The only one pumping out a range of single frequency beginner detectors will be First Texas as that's what they do with what they have and they'll be mostly purchased for kids, adult beginners will tend to favour paying a little bit more for something a bit better like the Vanquish, Simplex or Ace.  It's pretty obvious by looking at their packaging and the descriptions on it they're above and beyond a really basic detector.

The easier beginner detectors are to use which multi frequency helps with, the more reliable their target ID's the more beginners will enjoy the hobby which means there is more chance of them upgrading to a higher end model.  I've never understood manufacturers limiting features that make the detector more enjoyable to use on beginner detectors as they just turn people off the hobby.  Having 4 levels of Target ID or something like that is just crazy, make a beginner dig tonnes of junk is a great way to turn them off the hobby.  Give them a Vanquish where they can cherry pick targets like a particular coin and they'll love it.

I don't know if it's just because I live in a country where nobody lives more than two hours drive to a beach and most live significantly closer but beginners here always think of a beach as a place to go with their new detector, and up until detectors like the Vanquish this wasn't really the ideal place for a beginner detector so it's good these SMF beginners detectors have beach capability.

[housmar]

Just my 2 cents on this topic:

As some one that had been away from detection for 30 years. I decided to get back into it, so you can look at me as a new be if you wish but with experience with single freq. Shopping around/watching videos/ comparing what others think/reviews is a wonderful tool now days in today's tech world. A machine that can go simplex and multi freq., makes an advantage for an all around machine. I realize when a manufacture says this or that about other manufactures like the word "obsolete" it hurts feeling to thous who have good proven machines, but need to realize it's very true if you really want to be honest with technology and advancement. It costs lots of money for new tech and advancement for companies to manufacture new lines of equipment. Some will stay ahead of the game others will stay the course there on to squeeze every penny they can till they can't. I think that's about where we are  with some of the good companies that still run single but have good tech in them. When I was in my 20's single freq., is all there was. 30 yrs later is a game changer to help or hinder you, depending on your knowledge and seriousness with detecting. I don't think it's perfected yet but a new page has turned.

[mh9162013]

34 minutes ago, housmar said:

30 yrs later is a game changer to help or hinder you, depending on your knowledge and seriousness with detecting. I don't think it's perfected yet but a new page has turned.

This is a great point.

I got an Equinox 600 a few years ago and when I used it, I didn't see much of a difference in real-world performance companred to my decades old Fisher F2. But after a few years of detecting, the Equinox 600 compared to the Fisher F2 is like comparing a modern smartphone to a rotary phone.

So what's my point? My point is that SMF still has some ways to go. There I was, a budding metal detectorist with a little bit of experience under my belt. I get an Equinox 600 and I'm like, "ok, that's it?" In other words, even with a small amount of experience, I still couldn't appreciate SMF tech. Imagine how the average "civilian" would react in a similar situation.

This isn't to say a rookie is in the same boat with an Ace 250/200 as they would be with a Vanquish 440. But there's still a decent chance that without the right mindset, attitude and/or expectations, the 440 will still disapppint just as much as the Ace will.

[phrunt]

Here is a question for you, who is in the market to buy themselves a single frequency detector, any takers? If so, what one and why?

Then, the other side of that is who is in the market to buy a multi frequency detector? I'm guessing a lot more people which is why manufacturers are in business.

Regardless of your definition of obsolete, I know which manufacturer I'd prefer be and that is one in the transition stage of selling only multi frequency machines like Minelab and soon to be Garrett, Nokta and XP rather than one stuck selling or should I say trying to sell their old single frequency machines.

Frankly I'm surprised people defending these old single frequency units, I would think people would be encouraging development but I guess some are happy with their old unit and don't like change or just like a particular brand that isn't in the game with multi frequency machines.

Let's say Garrett released a Garrett AT Max Multi with improvements to their SMF since the Apex, how many people do you think would be walking into their dealer asking to buy the AT Max single frequency unit sitting on the shelf next to the AT Max Multi frequency unit, I'm guessing very few.  It's a numbers game and sales are what keep manufacturers in business, if they aren't selling product they're no longer viable. 

Single frequency detectors will soon be for very specialist tasks with very few will buy or need as their multi will do the job good enough in most cases, or they'll be the absolute entry level or heavily discounted to try get some sales.

[mh9162013]

54 minutes ago, phrunt said:

Let's say Garrett released a Garrett AT Max Multi with improvements to their SMF since the Apex, how many people do you think would be walking into their dealer asking to buy the AT Max single frequency unit sitting on the shelf next to the AT Max Multi frequency unit, I'm guessing very few.  It's a numbers game and sales are what keep manufacturers in business, if they aren't selling product they're no longer viable. 

That's not the best analogy b/c you're comparing a single frequency (SF) detector against a SMF detector from the same company. This means the marketing influenes will be far different that a comparison of say, the AT Max to the Equinox.

In your hypo, it's quite possible that, assuming the SF AT Max is still being sold by Garrett, the way Garrett markets it will be far different than the way they market it now. I doubt they'll still tout it as the "ultimate" detector. 

My guess is that Garrett would either discontinue the AT Max or start marketing it as a "budget" all terrain detector.

I think at least a few SF machines may be around for a while, even if they undeniably become "obsolete." Just look at the Tesoros!

Another comparison might be photographers that use film. 

[phrunt]

That's the point really, as soon as Garrett have a Multi Freaker AT Max nobody will care about the old AT Max except those that own it and see it's second hand value crash, it'll have it's price reduced or will no longer exist much like Nokta are doing with their single frequency machines now the Legend is coming.

Where that leaves the AT Gold and AT Pro is anyone's guess but likely the chopping block.  The 24k has replaced the AT Gold as their single frequency gold machine and rightly so as it's a real prospecting machine and even the 24k will be less necessary and become more of a specialist detector once the AT Max Multi comes out, and the AT Max Multi will likely have all the abilities of the AT Gold anyway which makes the AT Gold and Pro obsolete, or at least not worthy of their standing in the lineup.

Minelab set the price of the SMF detectors so most brands will stick to around that price range which is similar to where other brands are they're selling their single frequency machines so that only leaves the option of discontinuing (obsolete) or reducing the price and moving them down from their perch to more of an entry level unit.  XP have been able to raise the price of theirs due to the nature of the beast, much better waterproofing and it's very different to the other detectors in it's design with the wireless coils and very different control method so it's not comparing apples to apples, this enabled them to offer it at very different pricing.

I guess my main point being just because a manufacturer continues to sell single frequency machines doesn't mean they're not obsolete, the sales volumes will dictate if they're obsolete or not, not the manufacturer keeping them on the market hoping for sales on their aging detectors.

[mh9162013]

9 minutes ago, phrunt said:

as soon as Garrett have a Multi Freaker AT Max nobody will care about the old AT Max except those that own it and see it's second hand value crash, it'll have it's price reduced or will no longer exist much like Nokta are doing with their single frequency machines now the Legend is coming.

See, I disagree. If we see a SMF AT Max, that doesn't have to mean the SF AT Max can't be effectively sold. I agree that Garrett may trim their SF line of detectors, but it doesn't mean the AT Max has to be one of the machines discontinued. Even if we see an amazing SMF AT Max that makes the Equinox look like a Tracker IV, the AT Max could still be easily sold. It'll probably sell for $199.99, but it could still be a great seller.

Isn't it understood that after the Legend's release the SImplex will still be sold by N/M? I thought I heard that somewhere, but I could be wrong.

When it comes to discussing obsolescence, I think people are focusing too much on what a machine can do without also properly accounting for how much it costs.

[phrunt]

Yes, but the Simplex is entry level and a very good entry level price, Nokta are discontinuing their higher end single frequency machines.  Do you see Garrett making the AT Max $299 like the Simplex or just discontinuing it when their AT Max Multi hits the market?  The Apex is their entry level SMF.  I admit brands especially US brands really hate discontinuing detectors, they're happy selling them for 30 years.

In some ways the Simplex is better value already than the AT Max even if the AT Max was $299.  The Simplex will be replaced at some point with a SMF.  These things aren't instant, I'm talking about what is happening at the moment which is setting the path for the future, we are in a transition period.

 

[mh9162013]

4 minutes ago, phrunt said:

do you see Garrett making the AT Max $299 like the Simplex or just discontinuing it when their AT Max Multi hits the market?

Honestly, I see them discontinuing it. But I could very well see them keeping it and drastically lowering its price.

If they do keep it, I think it should cost under $200, but knowing Garrett, I doubt that'll happen and your price of $299 is more likely.

And yes, the Simplex is currently a better value than the AT Max for most detecting situations. Heck, most machines are better values than the AT Max. I personally think the AT Max and AT Pro are some of the WORST detectors on the market in terms of what the consumer gets for each dollar spent. I'm both in awe and utterly disgusted by this fact.