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Steve Herschbach

Garrett Engineer Brent Weaver Discusses Ace Apex Technology

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On 5/17/2020 at 9:39 PM, Jeff McClendon said:

I am going to guess that you tested both the discrimination mode and the "all metal mode" on the AT Gold. I had no problem with the AT Gold's AM mode's recovery speed and target separation. My problem recovery speed/audio lag wise was with the AT Gold, AT Pro and the ACE in discrimination mode. Since the APEX only has discrimination modes, I am worried.

Jeff

I always test recovery speed in disc mode. The AT Gold was excellent, the AT Pro not so much.

garrett-ace-apex-metal-detector-studio.jpg

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Technically there is no such thing as recovery speed in a true threshold based all metal mode. All targets and ground respond continuously. However, the threshold autotune is always trying to smooth the threshold, so you do have varying rates of threshold recovery. White's of course pioneered variable self adjusting threshold (SAT) long ago, and now many other manufacturers have followed suit on modern detectors that feature a true threshold based all metal mode.

Threshold Autotune, SAT & V/SAT

Recovery speed or reactivity is a function of a disc mode, with most disc modes having a "gated" audio response. This is where each target response is distinct in length, and must complete itself before a new audio response can commence. Like opening and closing a gate. If the response is too long it can mask new targets that are so close as to be within the time-frame allocated to the first target response.

Recovery Speed, Recovery Delay, And Reactivity

The key thing to remember when discussing recovery speed or reactivity is that what you are talking about is the ability of a detector to separate targets that are under the coil at nearly the same time. However, a coil is seeing everything that is under the coil at the same time, and can combine / average the results for everything under the coil, delivering an inaccurate target id result, or, a stronger target under one portion of the coil will override (mask) another target that is also under the coil. Therefore it really is coil size that matters here more than anything, and a detector with a slower recovery speed and a small coil can easily do better than a very fast detector with a larger coil. In an ideal situation you have only one target under the coil at any time, and in the event of multiple targets under a coil some sort of inaccurate target id or masking is almost inevitable. It is the nature of how the detectors function, and no magic recovery speed setting can change that. The Deus is renowned for its recovery speed, and rightfully so. However, due to a lack of small coil options many other detectors can easily equal or exceed the Deus for target separation by simply employing much smaller coils than are available for it.

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8 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Honestly Monte, there is nothing “Ace” about this detector but the name. It’s a completely new detector.

Steve, to a point I am talking in generalities because they positioned this in the Ace series, and we can only expect an upscale follow-up for the AT series.  I have repeatedly stated I like the 'package' and grip used, the control housing looks great and the display's VDI is larger and easier-to-see.  Also, time and time again in almost each post I have stated that we don't really know about the design, if they made any software differences between modes with regard to recovery speed, etc., etc.

I've also said that I really hope they have made some improvements over the Ace line, but until we use it, we won't know.  But I did listen to the audio behavior when they sampled some targets,  and I have several friends who did the same and then contacted me about what they heard.  I note that at about 1:05 into Brent weaver's video he said the Apex is a 'totally new design."  I noticed that when he sampled a coin and an iron nail in the video, the Nil had more of that Garrett Iron Audio 'ring-time' to it that was a bit drawn-out or delayed recovery.

I had an Ace 400 and we have used the T Gold and AT Max with that Iron Audio in the very ferrous contaminated sites and using that Iron Audio response was terrible.  It needs to b a quicker response at a low tone like a T2 or CoRe or Relic or MXT Pro.  As I have also stated several times, I have been thinning out some detectors and have made room on my wall for an APEX, which will be used at times where it can work well with that 6X11 Viper coil.  It will see regular travel and regular everyday use once they get a couple of good smaller-size coils on the market for it.  Needed to work most of the challenging sites I hunt.

Monte

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Thanks, Steve.   

It was an informative video.  

Garrett has entered the realm of Whites and Minelab by being able to offer full spectrum detection along with the individual frequency selections that make up that spectrum.   Interesting that Garret directly states it's Multi-Flex mode operates throughout the whole 4 frequency spectrum of the Apex.  Glad to see none of the Minelab Equinox smoke and mirror advertising at work here. 

I wonder how they managed the battery drain of running all 4 frequency at once?  

Much more attractive than the Vanquish series.  Minelab fumbled there as I'm sure the Nokta/Makro full band spectrum offering will also look more modern than the Vanquished when it's released. 

I'm sure 1st Texas Products is working on a selectable with full band spectrum unit as well since that is the new direction of general purpose models.

HH

Mike

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5 minutes ago, Mike Hillis said:

I'm sure 1st Texas Products is working on a selectable with full band spectrum unit as well

That's funny!

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1 hour ago, Mike Hillis said:

 Interesting that Garret directly states it's Multi-Flex mode operates throughout the whole 5 frequency spectrum of the Apex. 

Unless I missed it, they never actually say that if you listen closely.  They only say it "simultaneously transmits across the entire spectrum of frequencies" (unpecified) or use vague terms like "the broad range of simultaneous frequencies".  It is also not specified in any of the literature they have released so far.  And frankly, this is exactly what I would expect them to say (and not say).  In fact, it would be ill advised of them to actually say how many they actually transmit simultaneously or that the four (not 5) individual frequency components are contained or comprised within their "full spectrum" Multiflex implementation to keep from being boxed in by naysayers, inadvertently reveal a trade secret, or to open themselves up to litigation.  Frankly is not important how many they transmit as long as they combine at least two that results in harmonics to cover the desired range and to get the desired performance effect.  For the same reasons, ML was also vague, but they also tried to clumsily "sell" the technology by implying things that were not precisely scientifically accurate and subject to multiple interpretations.  Garretts approach is still vague but cleaner.

1 hour ago, Mike Hillis said:

I wonder how they managed the battery drain of running all 5 frequency at once?  

They probably didn't.  Carl can explain why doing that is technically 1) challenging and 2) unnecessary.  Again, its 4 individual frequencies.

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Thank you Steve, Chase and Carl for giving great explanations on recovery speed, reactivity, target separation, VSAT/SAT, Autotune and multi frequency ratios. I learn so much whenever I read your posts. The newer gold prospecting detectors seem to have almost hybrid or mixed mode operation in their "Gold" modes like the Deus/Orx and Equinox having adjustable reactivity or recovery speed. I get confused...........which is nothing new.

Jeff

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4 hours ago, Mike Hillis said:

I'm sure 1st Texas Products is working on a selectable with full band spectrum unit as well since that is the new direction of general purpose models.

HH

Mike

Yesterday I caught some info ... but nothing specific...

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It’s no secret for many years that Dave has been locked in the FT dungeon working on multifrequency. I do hope the old boy is well.

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