Makro Kruzer Target ID Mineralization Not Happening

[Sven1]

Hey Jeff,

I will PM you my electronics engineer friend's email  in Colo Springs, he would be one to talk to. His detector line up sounds like yours plus a bunch.

[Steve Herschbach]

11 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

It is just kind of weird that the 3 Tone mode on the Kruzer simply will not work here unless it is at 90 gain.

Just goes to show there is an exception to every rule and how learning any one detector is paramount. I learned something today! 

 

11 hours ago, Jeff McClendon said:

There are many places in the Western USA where single frequency detectors are just unreliable. I was in the Colorado mountains today at a well known gold producing site trying to run my GM24K. Luckily I took both coils since the 6.5 inch concentric was overloading with gain at 3 and VSAT at max. The 10x5 DD worked okay at gain of 5 with VSAT at max. Of course there is pea sized to marble sized magnetite all over the ground. I should have had my Nox 800 and TDI SL. I will take the right detectors next time.

The picture below is some of the small stuff. I just hover my pick magnet an inch above the ground and this is the result.

Jeff

 

I really enjoy using VLF metal detectors, but after so many years of using the best PI detectors and then the GPZ 7000 they are in another way always a disappointment. That pictures looks very familiar! I normally hunt places where the best VLF detectors get 50% of the depth quoted by most internet sources, including the videos. Information sources counted as gospel by many are fairly clueless when it comes to detecting in extreme mineralization. As you noted there are places where just getting a VLF to function is a challenge.

The most disappointing thing of all is how poor discrimination really is. I have seen ground where the best VLF detectors made call a .22 shell casing sitting on top of the ground as a ferrous target!! So while I use VLF detectors a lot I can never really count on them when the going gets serious. The lack of depth and unreliable discrimination means you need a good PI or GPZ and have to dig every target in a high value location.

What I really need is a SDC 2300 in a 24K type package with coils to match.

[Jeff McClendon]

Steve, I don't have nearly the experience or knowledge of guys like you and I keep making dumb mistakes by thinking a beautiful, recently designed VLF single frequency detector will actually work here. I give up. Even the 24K drove me nuts yesterday. I did manage to find a .3 gram nugget but I got lucky since it was in the hole with a fragment of tin. I reburied the nugget by itself at 2" and it read a 0 to 33 (solidly in the iron zone) on the 24K because of all of the magnetite. The same nugget air tested at 65 to 80 (solid non-ferrous numbers) all the way out to past 4". I gave up using Iron Cancel and just dug anything with a short zip after that......

I really want to support our metal detector manufacturers and like everybody else I love a new toy! Hopefully NokMak, XP and our US manufactures can come through with more versatile, modern multi frequency VLF detectors that can operate in our western USA dirt soon meaning before we all die out here.

Jeff

[Steve Herschbach]

From what I’ve seen with Equinox a dedicated Multi-IQ prospecting machine will be something. I’d kind of like to putter with a Tarsacci for nugget detecting but would again rather see a machine made for that use rather than force a beach detector to do something it was not designed for. Single frequency for nugget detecting however has not changed substantially in decades.

This is the genuine truth whether people like it or not. When it comes to depth on larger gold nuggets and target id no single frequency detector made since does any better than my 13.77 kHz Compass Gold Scanner Pro did in 1990. And for smaller gold nothing has changed much in single frequency since my 50 kHz Goldmaster II in 1992.

The machines have gotten more stable and lighter, with things like wireless and waterproof. But single frequency depth and sensitivity plus discrimination accuracy are basically the same as 30 years ago. All this marketing about more depth and more sensitivity is mostly an illusion, with the same old tech endlessly repackaged. My iPhone is an amazing thing, but does it really make a phone call better than a 30 year old dial up land line? Actually, maybe not as good.

That is why most of my VLF reviews the last twenty years have eschewed competitive depth tests and focused on features. Because in most cases that’s all you are buying, and thinking some new single frequency VLF is really going to change anything... I’m way past believing that.

These machines actually were game changers.....

Bud Herschbach with original 19 kHz Fisher Gold Bug and 3-3/4" coil In 1990

The Gold Bug was 19 kHz, “S” rod, super light, hip or chest mount, elliptical coils... revolutionary physical design for the day, but no discrimination.

Steve Herschbach with 13.77 kHz Compass Gold Scanner Pro in 1990

The Gold Scanner Pro had great depth on larger gold in particular, and was mixed mode - full metal audio with separate full range visual discrimination meter at same time. A nugget machine way ahead of its time but unfortunately touchy and unstable, very knock sensitive. Makes a Gold Monster look rock solid for coil knock sensitivity by comparison! 

Steve with White's Goldmaster II in 1992

The Goldmaster II at 50 kHz was the first true high frequency nugget hunter, and blasted previously low producing locations wide open with its small gold capability. The Gold Bug 2 at 71 kHz in 1995 bested it on tiny gold but at some sacrifice on larger gold at depth. Recent designs have again validated the 45 to 50 kHz range as offering the best balance overall for depth on larger gold while retaining small gold sensitivity.

Anyone who actually puts one of these machines up against the best made today would be shocked at how far we have not come with VLF in the last 30 years. The real advances were made in PI and frankly when it comes to the most serious prospectors Minelab has owned that market ever since the SD 2000 in 1995. Even there, put a good 18” coil on a SD 2000, people would also be surprised at how little has been done since to advance depth on multi ounce and larger nuggets. PI capability on small gold advanced by leaps and bounds, but the lunker nugget capability not much at all. That’s why we read all those tales from twenty years ago and why new huge nugget finds are so rare.

[Steve Herschbach]

 

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

Geez, why'd they stop making that 3-3/4" coil. I'd sacrifice my left eyeball to have that coil.

I have two plus an original Gold Bug, the one seen in this picture. I am going to send it to Fisher to get refurbished and the coil matched to the detector. I will probably sell the other coil, one of the two I grabbed out of stock decades ago and put aside as I knew they would become rare. But they only work on that old original analog 19 kHz Gold Bug. Not as hot as you might think as the old 19 kHz model was lower gain than the new model, but handled super hot ground better because of that. Amazing nook and cranny coil though would love one for modern machines. Almost closer to being a probe than a coil.

Steve's sister with 4 dwt gold nugget she found with Gold Bug

[Steve Herschbach]

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

White's touted their 24k of handling crazy ground due to it's new ground balance method.  I guess that was just marketing?

No. I think it has more range, a better ability to balance to both the ground and a hot rock that is dissimilar to the ground. So you get quieter operation on ground another machine would be noisier on. But absolute depth is what we are talking about, that has not changed. What has gotten a little better is ground handling and stability, which reveals nuggets that may have been missed previously by less skillful or patient operators.

Go from a Goldmaster 2 to Goldmaster V/Sat to Goldmaster 3 to Goldmaster 4/B to Goldmaster GMT and now Goldmaster 24K and it’s all just tweaks and twiddles. Reality is simply that there is only so much one can do with a good 50 kHz circuit and 95% of the ability was obtained out of the starting gate.

I worked for decades in marketing and frankly people are suckers and easily manipulated. We all hear what we want to hear. It’s that simple. Tell us what we want to hear, we eat it up, even in the face of contradictory facts. People want to hear a new detector will work magic, so just say so and people will buy it. And then they will find ways to prove to themselves they made a wise choice. That’s why LRL buyers swear the machines work. Admitting otherwise is an admission they got ripped off, and it’s a rare person that will do that.

It’s not to say the improvements are not real. I would never go back to the Gold Scanner Pro now. I did already and have done that with numerous machines, and proved that going way backwards is never a good idea. It is just that the differences are very subtle and a matter of fractional inches at best, and more often than not just better ground handling capability with deliver more apparent depth, not quite the same thing as absolute depth.

Minelab does it as do they all. Going from the SD 2000 to SD2100 to SD2200 to GP Extreme to GP 3000 to GP 3500 to GPX 4000 to GPX 4500 to GPX 4800 to GPX 5000 from start to finish was a huge change. But each step was small along the way and a couple barely any difference at all. The big steps were SD to GP to GPX.

[kac]

Dirt like that you might be better off with a PI.

I did hit an area that I was picking up some the old large cents and one end of the area has really bad emi that just kills 14 and 19. Even my Tejon I had a steady flutter on the thresh. For kicks I chucked it into 5khz rather then fiddle with the freq offset and then ran it in Gen mode.

There is a besides the frequency I discovered couple bucks worth of dimes mixed in with the iron. My settings I dropped iSat to 5 from 6, could go bit lower I think as min seems fairly consistent. Had gain blasted at 99 and just listened for the coin size objects like Sven1 mentioned. The vdi would hit quite a bit with - - and 04's but I would swing the coil in a different direction and if I got a spike to high 60's I would dig it. Just about every time was a coin, some hit near the 12" mark or so most 6 or less but all mixed in iron that 3 tone wouldn't even blip on or barely blip. 4 tone does hit those targets very well but I found it harder to follow.

So....... you might like Gen Mode. Don't dig by pitch but by size.

Gen mode is fast becoming my favorite mode on this machine.

[Jeff McClendon]

Thanks everyone for contributing to this topic which I guess more appropriately could be titled "High Mineralization And Single Frequency VLFS. 

Steve, I am starting to miss my Tesoro Lobo Super Traq. It was simple, basic all metal operation and it could handle mineralization pretty well at 19 kHz, I just dug everything and really had no expectations. The Gold Bug Pro, F19 and Teknetics G2+ are in that same boat too. Simple to use, very effective all metal modes and fun to swing.

So, I did a re-hunt of the area that I have been testing with the Makro Kruzer 14 kHz and Makro Racer 2 (they are both really nice detectors btw) which is a baseball/soccer field I have never hunted on until I got the NokMaks. I used my Nox 600 and casually hunted the same area. By casually I mean I was not overlapping sweeps or being particularly careful. I was just out walking my dog and swinging my 600. I should have just used my Vanquish 440, the Nox 600 was overkill!!!!

Unfortunately, I found a lot of legitimate targets. I guess I will have to hunt this whole area again. On the left side are the targets that really bug me. Lots of low to mid conductors that should have been easily and correctly detected by the NokMaks and could have also been gold jewelry. None of the targets on the left were deeper than 4". As I said before, in 3 Tone which is the Kruzer's designated trashy park coin/jewelry mode, those targets will either not be detected in the default settings or their audio was so weak and blended (meaning I got low mid and high tones at exactly the same time, so one really mixed up tone) and their numbers were so jumpy in the 60s to 90s, that I probably considered them to be just past the edge of detection or junk targets. The targets on the right side of the plate are also troublesome. I can only assume that some of them were wrapping around into the iron range or again, their audio was so weak and filled with static that I just walked over them.

With the Nox, all of these targets were no brainers. I knew almost exactly what I was digging. Even the pull tabs sound different from the nickels enough for me to know when I'm digging one or the other. The only target that fooled me was the junk ring which I expected to be a zinc penny.

So, this is not about the shortcomings of any single frequency VLF detector that operates below 15 kHz. This is about bad soil conditions and what those conditions do to perfectly good detectors. It is also about how well simultaneous multi frequency detectors with plenty of recovery speed and target separation do in bad dirt.  Like kac said in a previous post, Gen mode on the Kruzer and the Racer 2 would probably work really well in my dirt. Yes they do even though they still up average targets. However, I expected (since I just can't believe it without way too many hard life lessons) all of the great detectors that I have tried in the last few years to actually work in more modes than a threshold based all metal mode. I did not buy them for their all metal mode. I bought them for their discrimination capabilities..............

[kac]

I wonder how a Tejon would work in your area, I find it very good with the 10x12 dd even at the beach where it won't ground balance yet doesn't false out. Only issue I ever had with the Tejon where it was difficult to hunt is where there is really bad emi and I get that annoying flutter but still can hear targets through it. Frequency on it is similar to the Lobo but has manual GB instead which I prefer anyways.

The Kruzer in gen mode still locks onto targets which is pretty cool, something the Tejon doesn't do.

[Sven1]

On the Kruzer and Impact with the 5x9DD coil at 5khz seemed to punch a bit deeper and I was rewarded finding some silver coins in some mineralized grounds.

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I kept a post from keith Southern regarding the Kruzer Gen mode. I will repost here for everyone.

 

Gen mode is a threshold based all metal mode..Single channel,no phase shifting so no disc..Think of it
like a raw feed before its ran through a seperate channel and comepred to produce a disc circuit...
A raw signal..reports everything with no bias although the visual ID will still work as it is tapped from
the disc side. the Gen mode will report it all..The Gen mode is best used in less littered sites for depth
and or mineral punch where you know I.D .is not important or skewed so bad it's irrelevant..
The gen mode is the deepest soil punch mode when set up accordingly..that is highest gain possible
without threshold waver or chatter..to set threshold you want to have on headphones and adjust
threshold to be just barley audible..right to the edge of going silent but still buzzing in your
ear..Threshold is like a carrier.it rises and falls when targets come towards it and passes it...set it too
low below audible buzz and weak targets may not be strong enough to cause it to rise above null..Set
it to loud and weak targets from depth or small targets will also be ignored as they can reach the point
to overcome the louder carrier noise..set it right on the edge of hearing it but no drop outs while
holding it in the air..then once a proper ground balance is achieved that same threshold in the air
should be heard while on target free soil..Then as you sweep if the threshold wants to null or rise
where there's no targets then you need to reground balance..Offset ground balance is easy to tell
from legitimate targets..huge nulls usually...if you find the soil is all over the place use auto tracking to
help rapidly changing ground conditions and or back of sensitivity if its to strong for the soil from blow
back..you'll have to find a sweet spot for the sen's and even swing speeds will help..you at the thrshold
to run smooth and barely there..then as you cross a target it will rise and fall its a raw feed so you will
get a feel of size and depth by the width and modulation of the signal..nails will usually way wah
sound like two small targets close together ..you'll learn when to look at the ID by modulation and
roundness..if its stronger it will usually show up on ID screen weak may or may not..the ones that
don't show up on ID screen and sound smooth round and deep are the ones you'll want to cut the
cake on so to speak.pull some dirt out to get it to the visual ID reading at least..
All metal threshold based hunting is fun and a huge eye opener and a great learning tool to really
understand a machine to its fullest..You have the best depth if you stay in tracking off but if you have
mineral and such till you adapt to the sound of a proper running feel tracking on may be a great
starting point...
And today's all metal modes with DD coils and such and SAT controls and auto track etc are a whole lot
easier to learn on than the old days when we didn't have SAT or even auto track..Keith