Another Bbs/fbs V.s. New Multi-frequency Detectors Questions

[Cabo Chris]

I've used BBS and FBS machines for shallow saltwater jewelry hunting.  I've not been on a treasure hunting vacation since COVID, but have since accuired a DEUS II and a Notka Legend.  I've been watching vids online and wonder why so many on a wet salt sand beach, GB these newer multi-frequency machines- even in beach/dive mode?  Now, I did try 3 leaky Equinox and found less gold and far more small pieces of junk, so clearly the new machines are more sensitive to small, tiny targets.  But I always found far more big gold, silver and platinum jewelry using BBS/FBS, with less time spent scooping small junk.  My concern as a shallow saltwater jewelry hunter is, what's with all this GBing at the wet salt beach with the newer MF units?  So many newer MF machines sound sparky when they hit the surf/wet salt sand and the operator GBs to quiet the machine down.  I have never GBd using BBS/FBS in the sea, or going from saltwater/wet to dry sand.  That's one reason I've found my share with BBS/FBS machines.  They're simple and effective in the surf.  What is BBS/FBS doing to compensate automatically for salt and ground and what's the difference between BBS/FBS and all the newer MF machines, which seem to require GB at the beach?  Would one GB the new MF machines in saltwater?  I always thought MF- (BBS/FBS) resolved VLF problems at the salt beach?  Is it because the new MF machines are more sensitive, or is BBS/FBS multi-frequency a different breed all together?  I wonder if I really should switch to these new MF machines for shallow saltwater hunting?  I found far less using the Equinox the few times I tried them.  (3 leaked!/ and why I did not grab a Manticore)  I do like the simplicity of the Legend and how small it packs for travel, and I sure like the Deus II.  But so far everything in my test garden those 2 can hit, so can an FBS Safari, I loan to non-detecting friends.  I still have my trusty Excalibur, but am thinking about getting another CTX 3030 for hunting shallow surf.  Those who jewelry hunt in surf with the newer MF machines, are they as quiet/simple as BBS/FBS?  Thanks!   

[Skull diver]

8 hours ago, Cabo Chris said:

I've used BBS and FBS machines for shallow saltwater jewelry hunting.  I've not been on a treasure hunting vacation since COVID, but have since accuired a DEUS II and a Notka Legend.  I've been watching vids online and wonder why so many on a wet salt sand beach, GB these newer multi-frequency machines- even in beach/dive mode?  Now, I did try 3 leaky Equinox and found less gold and far more small pieces of junk, so clearly the new machines are more sensitive to small, tiny targets.  But I always found far more big gold, silver and platinum jewelry using BBS/FBS, with less time spent scooping small junk.  My concern as a shallow saltwater jewelry hunter is, what's with all this GBing at the wet salt beach with the newer MF units?  So many newer MF machines sound sparky when they hit the surf/wet salt sand and the operator GBs to quiet the machine down.  I have never GBd using BBS/FBS in the sea, or going from saltwater/wet to dry sand.  That's one reason I've found my share with BBS/FBS machines.  They're simple and effective in the surf.  What is BBS/FBS doing to compensate automatically for salt and ground and what's the difference between BBS/FBS and all the newer MF machines, which seem to require GB at the beach?  Would one GB the new MF machines in saltwater?  I always thought MF- (BBS/FBS) resolved VLF problems at the salt beach?  Is it because the new MF machines are more sensitive, or is BBS/FBS multi-frequency a different breed all together?  I wonder if I really should switch to these new MF machines for shallow saltwater hunting?  I found far less using the Equinox the few times I tried them.  (3 leaked!/ and why I did not grab a Manticore)  I do like the simplicity of the Legend and how small it packs for travel, and I sure like the Deus II.  But so far everything in my test garden those 2 can hit, so can an FBS Safari, I loan to non-detecting friends.  I still have my trusty Excalibur, but am thinking about getting another CTX 3030 for hunting shallow surf.  Those who jewelry hunt in surf with the newer MF machines, are they as quiet/simple as BBS/FBS?  Thanks!   

I can totally confirm your impressions and we own practically the same instruments except for a pulse and a 2.4kHz single-frequency with concentric coil.

I found in the D2 the depth of detection that I did not have on the Ctx with the same coil.

Regarding the balance I think it is relative and if you look at the numbers in saltwater, a strange 70/85 range appears, when in fact the rocky/clay bottom is on the 25 and in fact that is the false signal to be shot down.

Exactly this makes the D2 different from an Excalibur or a Ctx: more sensitivity and depth and I mean on thin and broken things too.

But since I am unashamedly clear and no brand pays for my reviews, I also say that for a saltwater diver, it is not really the ideal instrument except with so specific settings that I struggled to find by trying and trying again.

Another point in favor of the Ctx is also a more effective id scale in "isolating" the gold, because by comparison on the D2 it is scattered pretty much everywhere between 27 and 70.

 

[Bill (S. CA)]

Chris,

An interesting series of questions you have raised here.  I wish I could address them all but I'm at work and don't want to get fired (HA!).  I will give you a few bullet point responses:

• Here on the West Coast, no one uses BBS or FBS detectors on the beach anymore.  We've all had them and done well with them but the Equinox changed the game. The older detectors do not have the same depth and sensitivity to small gold like the newer MF's.  Plus they are just too darn heavy.
• The Deus II rules the beaches out here.  You see an occasional Manticore, Equinox or Legend.  Maybe a PI in the hands of some geezer who wants to argue about how PI's will beat anything.  We have all tried GB'ing and none of us have found it to make a difference.  With that being said, if you use a Garrett Apex you will need to GB in the water or else it will false a lot.
• Personally I hunt with an Equinox 800 and a Legend.  I don't have a Deus II yet because I have two children in school, an ex-wife and 7 cats.  Yeah, I'm dumb.  But I have never had a falsing issue with either of my detectors on wet sand or in the surf unless I run them too hot.  This, I find, is still a common mistake among detectorists I meet up with.  They are scared to death about missing anything so they automatically run their sensitivity at max. 

Thanks for positing this interesting topic.

Bill

[midalake]

On 11/30/2023 at 7:02 PM, Cabo Chris said:

Would one GB the new MF machines in saltwater?  I always thought MF- (BBS/FBS) resolved VLF problems at the salt beach?  Is it because the new MF machines are more sensitive, or is BBS/FBS multi-frequency a different breed all together? 

I have run them all. The new machines are just more sensitive. Major manufactures recommend running the new MF machines in TRACKING GB, at a salt beach . That is exactly what I do!

I think tracking GB really works great at wet salt beach and into the water. Tracking GB really helps with transition from water to wet sand and with pockets of black sand. 

I disagree with you on gold finds. Not only do the new machines find the big stuff better than most older machines it is killer on small stuff and chains. 

Another factor. In my opinion the new machines are better at identifying iron. Time not spent digging wrap-around signals is time spent to find more gold!!! 

[midalake]

21 hours ago, Bill (S. CA) said:

But I have never had a falsing issue with either of my detectors on wet sand or in the surf unless I run them too hot.  This, I find, is still a common mistake among detectorists I meet up with.  They are scared to death about missing anything so they automatically run their sensitivity at max. 

A huge mistake by many. 

[Chase Goldman]

On 11/30/2023 at 8:02 PM, Cabo Chris said:

I found far less using the Equinox the few times I tried them.  (3 leaked!/ and why I did not grab a Manticore)  I do like the simplicity of the Legend and how small it packs for travel, and I sure like the Deus II.  But so far everything in my test garden those 2 can hit, so can an FBS Safari, I loan to non-detecting friends.  I still have my trusty Excalibur, but am thinking about getting another CTX 3030 for hunting shallow surf.

Unless your test garden emulates a salt beach with moving surf, the results from your test garden run are not really telling you anything about how those detectors compare in the specific conditions you are interested in.

The fact is that the latest generation of simultaneous multi-frequency detectors have been specifically designed to be versatile, whereas the BBS and FBS detectors were designed to excel at specific things.  The Excalibur/Excal was designed to excel and shallow and deep salt water detecting.  The FBS2 CTX 3030 excels at deep silver and benefits from FBS2 to run stable on a salt beach.  However, it is not as hot as the current crop of SMF detectors (Equinox, Deus 2, Legend, and Manticore) on small, mid-conductive targets like gold jewelry.   The BBS and FBS2 detectors effectively only have one Simultaneous Multi-frequency (SMF) Mode whereas the new generation of SMF detectors have multiple SMF modes with different frequency combinations and more varied signal processing algorithms that not enhance operational stability but also enhance target ID accuracy, including better identification and filtering of iron.  Regarding ground balancing, a salt surf environment is very challenging (even worse if you throw in black sand) as salinity levels are constantly changing in the surf and the resulting feedback that affects detector stability and small gold signal acquisition suffer from a fixed reference, hence GB tracking under those conditions helps tremendously.  Minelab appears to have satisfactorily addressed the water intrusion issues with a redesigned enclosure that it uses for new generation Equinox 700/900 and the Manticore (as well as the Xterra-Pro) and the Legend and Deus 2 have pretty much proven themselves to be designed rugged enough to withstand the rigors of submerged salt beach detecting, so the Equinox 600/800 water intrusion issues can be avoided now.

CTX is a great machine and can indeed outperform even the latest and greatest SMF detectors in mild dirt on deep high conductors, but, IMO, not your best choice for shallow salt beach jewelry detecting.

[phrunt]

3 hours ago, Chase Goldman said:

CTX is a great machine and can indeed outperform even the latest and greatest SMF detectors in mild dirt on deep high conductors, but, IMO, not your best choice for shallow salt beach jewelry detecting.

Sounds about right, the other thing the CTX has unsurpassed ID accuracy in milder soil conditions and mild sand beaches on the sand, no idea about underwater, this may change if trash levels are high but I've never experienced that, the Nox 800 is pretty good but no CTX and the Manticore is a step backwards in this regard.    It's weak point is certainly small or thin gold items but loves deep high conductors even tiny little thin silver coins can be found at remarkable depth with great target ID's.

[Gerry in Idaho]

Very good questions you posted.  I enjoy reading what others are saying and trying to see any patterns.

I'm not a beach detecting expert as I live in Idaho but I do go 2 or 3 times a yr to Tropical areas and am currently in Cancun as I reply. 

I don't hunt the beach myself, but prefer to stay in the water.  Been doing these trips each winter for 15 yrs and started with BBS, went to FBS 3030, then MF EQ-800 and now MF Manticore. 

Yes I have to GB my EQ-800 and Manticore and yes they are chattery detectors when compared to the BBS and FBS.

Yes the new MF detectors are more Sensitive to smaller gold earrings,  necklaces, pendants and more. I think the extra Sensitivity is also what causes extra chatter.  A VLF type gold nugget detector does the same thing in mineralized soils and I can find tiny nuggets, but I  hear more ground noise,  hot rocks and cold stones. 

Depth on gold rings and especially man's wedding bands.  I'm a firm believer the Excalibur and CTX-3030 are the Deepest VLF type class detectors I've ever used in Saltwater.  I have not ran a Deus or Deus-II yet but others say they're deep. 

I've yet to dig a gold ring with Equinox or Manticore in Saltwater that was over 10" but I've recovered dozens with Xcal and 3030 easily over 12" and a couple 14"+.  One particular band 18K that was 15 grams was probably closer to 16" depth.  I just can't seem to get great amazing depths with the newer MF Minelab’s.  But I am getting more thin band ladies diamond rings with MF.

Another aspect of water detecting I feel the Xcal and 3030 are better at.  Hearing a ring that's not directly under the coil.  The signal on the older detectors is drawn out and longer.  The EQ and Manticore are short and fast.  I prefer the drawn out response. 

Again,  I'm not an everyday water hunter but I have spent many hours in the water on my trips and back in the day, easily 8 to 10 hr days.  Now my older worn out body can barely do 6 and this trip it's been about 5 hr days. 

I do feel my gold ring counts are better than average. It took about 5 yrs before I got tuned into hoe to read the water, so my counts those 1st 5 yrs was not much.  The last 10 yrs I feel have been pretty dialed in. My gold and or platinum rings are just over 300 with 250 coming the last 10. I have friends who live near the coast and they have more than I, but mine are mainly from 2 or 3 trips each year.

Interestingly, I'm coming back down in a few months, maybe I just might pack the 3030 beast and see if I do in fact dig a couple Deep rings.

[midalake]

10 hours ago, Gerry in Idaho said:

Hearing a ring that's not directly under the coil.  The signal on the older detectors is drawn out and longer.  The EQ and Manticore are short and fast.  I prefer the drawn out response. 

Of course, I know that, you know what I am writing. 

Can't speak for the Manticore much but on the Equinox with Horseshoe Mode on and lower recovery speeds this set-up acts more like a VLF detector on the elongated signals. One has to strike a balance with Recovery speed because of diminishing returns in a wet salt and mineralized environment if your recovery speed is too low. 

Edit: When I do run the D2 with the 9" coil I do find it fits the short and choppy definition.   

[Vladimir 06660]

Test....air.....detector CTX3030.......11 inch coil.

EMI tuning is set to....................................................................  1....... and ....... 11 position.

Coin denomination............metal..................diameter.....................detection range.

1 ruble USSR 1975.................nickel................31mm...................46 cm.............46 cm.

3 kopecks Empire 1916........copper...............28mm...................42 cm.............41 cm.

10 kopecks Empire 1906......silver................17mm.......................36 cm... ........32 cm.

1 kopeck USSR 1961.............A-bronze..........15mm................. ...31 cm.............32 cm.

10 kopecks USSR 1961.........nickel...............17mm............... ......25 cm............29 cm.

1 gram flat...............................gold................///// //......................20 cm............22 cm.

0.4 grams flat..........................gold................///////.. ....................11 cm.............14 cm.

Pay attention to gold and copper with silver.