A "holy Grail" In Jewelry Hunting Has Been Achieved!

[Digalicious]

Time to rejoice everyone, because the impossible is now possible!

You see, a detectorist on another forum, told other members that Target Trace on the Manticore can distinguish between aluminum trash and gold jewelry. Imagine that? No more digging any of that trash when hunting for gold jewelry!

Yes, you read that right. TT on the Manti can actually defy the laws of electromagnetism.

However, before you throw out all your other detectors, you probably should know that she's a Minelab Rep and also thinks TT shows the shape of the targets😁









 

[Digalicious]

I did politely explain to her how she was completely wrong, but she not only refused to believe it, she told me not to reply to her anymore 😆

Thing is, I normally couldn't care less what she believes about TT. But, she is Admin and owner of the site, and there are a lot of newbies on that site that will take her word for it. Imagine being a newbie and shelling out big bucks for a Manti, because an "authority" told you the Manti's TT shows the shape of the targets and can also distinguish between gold jewelry and nonferrous trash? 

I just find it hard to sit back when someone is giving biased, misleading, and outright erroneous information to newbies.

[King-Of-Bling]

1 hour ago, Digalicious said:

I did politely explain to her how she was completely wrong, but she not only refused to believe it, she told me not to reply to her anymore 😆

Thing is, I normally couldn't care less what she believes about TT. But, she is Admin and owner of the site, and there are a lot of newbies on that site that will take her word for it. Imagine being a newbie and shelling out big bucks for a Manti, because an "authority" told you the Manti's TT shows the shape of the targets and can also distinguish between gold jewelry and nonferrous trash? 

I just find it hard to sit back when someone is giving biased, misleading, and outright erroneous information to newbies.

If I'm still around when a machine can correctly call gold vs aluminum , I will be a rich man. As it is , I've found several pieces of gold with the ML Nox that read in the negatives with a dig-it-all approach. No discrimination used. These #s would typically tell someone "don't dig , it's iron". You might want to bail out of her "Club of Fools".

[Kostas 13]

Most people who say things that don't correspond to reality are definitely trying to mislead and take advantage of newbies who are unfortunately the majority.

in my country greece in recent years many people are active in facebook groups writing things that cause great irritation, these people avoid participating in forums which unfortunately now consist of few people but with real knowledge, the reason they don't participate in the forum is that they have no arguments to back up their words against people who have real knowledge.

unfortunately there is a lot of exploitation behind this wonderful hobby and most of the time it is also the fault of the marketers who recruit these people to mislead with their lies for financial gain...

[Digalicious]

17 hours ago, Kostas 13 said:

Most people who say things that don't correspond to reality are definitely trying to mislead and take advantage of newbies who are unfortunately the majority.

unfortunately there is a lot of exploitation behind this wonderful hobby and most of the time it is also the fault of the marketers who recruit these people to mislead with their lies for financial gain...

For those that think TT shows shape, it makes me wonder why they think so. Is it because of people like the lady in my original post? How Minelab marketed TT? Both?

Thing is, from what I've seen, it's not uncommon for Manticore owners to think that TT shows shape. They mistakenly believe that the target is junk if it's not a perfect circle on the nonferrous axis of TT. They don't realize that they're missing a lot of good targets, because in various scenarios, a good nonferrous target will appear as an elongated smudge, or separated circles. Here's a recent example from someone on another forum:

 

Quote

If the target ID is lets say 24, and the ID is not round on the ID map, it my experience its been can slaw. Slightly oval a pull tab

That is all completely wrong in more than one way. I replied to him with:
 

Quote

What is viewed on the map, has nothing to do with the shape of the target. The ID map does not know the shape of the target. Again, the map is just plotting the ID. For example, if an elongated piece of copper tube has an ID of 85, then that elongated tube will show as a small single circle on the map. In contrast, if a deep coin, gold ring, coin on edge, etc, has an alternating ID of let's say 80, 81, and 82, then the map will show that coin and ring as an elongated smear.

Hmmm. I'm going to ask that lady and this guy why they thought TT was showing the shape of targets. That should be interesting 🙂
 

[Chase Goldman]

1 hour ago, Digalicious said:

That is all completely wrong in more than one way. I replied to him with:

While you are fundamentally correct in your assertion regarding TT and target shape correlation, what the man is saying is not necessarily "completely" wrong.  While the TT doesn't actually show the shape of a target, the traces can show TID variability that occurs with non-symmetric targets, co-located targets, and seemingly "stable" TIDs can show smears and shapes other than a dot. The traces the man describes may very well align with his real life experience digging can slaw and pull tabs. 

Do you have actual field experience with the Manticore that contradicts the man's assertions and actual experiences regarding the correlation of his TT plots and target predictions?

Also, speaking as a site moderator and from past experience, no real good can come from documenting your interactions with others on  another MD site and quoting others who cannot defend themselves here and doing so with minimal context.  Even if the individuals and site go unnamed it can put Steve in an awkward position with the principles of the other site - doesn't take much detective work for people to figure out was is going on to have it boomerang back. 

So while it's worth it to continue to discuss the nuances of Manticore target trace in this thread, let's just take the high road and put a stop to airing your differences of opinion and drama with these unnamed people from your anonymous detecting site, if you don't mind. 

Thanks for understanding.

 

 

[Jeff McClendon]

I don't own a Manticore and have never used one. I have owned and used a CTX 3030, Deus 1 and Deus 2 which all have a form of 2D visual target mapping/trace. There is definitely some information that can be gained from those detectors besides just audio nuances and target IDs which can help separate rounded objects with good density from randomly shaped aluminum trash, iron objects and ferrous/non-ferrous alloys. These extra visual aids will not definitively distinguish a gold ring from an undamaged oval or square pull tab, a brass grommet, a US nickel or any other round, dense object that has an overlapping target ID that is the same as any gold ring.

I have not read the original exchange that this topic is based on (and I really don’t want to) so I haven't got both sides of the coin. So I don't know if the person's post was so careless and general that it actually said that the Manticore's Target Trace function can tell the difference between gold jewelry and aluminum trash. 

Deus 1 and Deus 2's XY Graph display can often give a really good indication of dense, round non-ferrous objects as opposed to irregularly shaped non-ferrous targets, many ferrous objects, and many mixed ferrous/non-ferrous objects if those objects aren't excessively deep. I have no doubt that the Manticore's Target Trace can do something similar.

For anyone wanting more information about the Manticore's Target Trace and how it sort of works and what influences the shape of the images, the manual is available on Minelab's website and starts on page 27.

Here is just some of page 27.

 

Target Trace
INTERPRETING THE TARGET TRACE

Most detected targets will show a distinct Target Trace that accompanies a solid, repeatable Target ID number. Just like the ID number, the Trace fades away over 5 seconds.

Learning to interpret the Target Trace is a worthwhile skill because it shows you additional information about the target that cannot be conveyed by the Target ID number alone and may not be obvious from listening to the detection audio. For example, if you detect a Target ID that you aren't interested in, but the ID Map is showing an elongated or irregularly shaped Trace, then there may be an adjacent object that is affecting the accuracy of the Target ID. You can now choose to investigate the target further.

Factors that affect the shape and position of the Target Trace include metallic composition, complexity, orientation and depth as well as swing rate and Frequency setting.

The opacity of the Target Trace is dependant on target strength. Strong signals generate a darker trace (are more opaque) whereas weaker signals generate a lighter trace (are more transparent).

Coins

Most non‐ferrous coins appear on the centreline as a distinct round dot. Low conductive coins (e.g. hammered or cut coins) appear to the left, and high conductive coins (e.g. large silver coins) appear to the right.

Note that some countries have ferrous coins, which will not appear on the centreline.

Pull tabs (and large aluminium foil)

Aluminium pull tabs are a common trash target that appear on the centreline as a distinct round dot, similar to coins.

           

[Digalicious]

28 minutes ago, Jeff McClendon said:

These extra visual aids will not definitively distinguish a gold ring from an undamaged oval or square pull tab, a brass grommet, a US nickel or any other round, dense object that has an overlapping target ID that is the same as any gold ring.

 

           

That's half of what this thread is about. The other half is about those that think TT displays the shape of the target. With that said, your above example need not be that specific. Reason being, the ID of any nonferrous object can be just about anywhere depending on its proximity to the coil, the object's differing shapes, the objects differing condition, and the objects orientation. Which of course leads to the old adage of, "If you want gold, you have to dig the trash". An ID plotter  like TT can't do anything to remedy that.

On a side note, with all the single targets, the ID will give one specific number. For example, let's say a target with an ID of 80. Assigning a distinct number to the target, is very concise. However, on that target, TT would show a circle in a vague range, and in more of a passive manner. As such, on all the single targets, ID is more accurate than TT.

 

[Digalicious]

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

While you are fundamentally correct in your assertion regarding TT and target shape correlation, what the man is saying is not necessarily "completely" wrong.  While the TT doesn't actually show the shape of a target, the traces can show TID variability that occurs with non-symmetric targets, co-located targets, and seemingly "stable" TIDs can show smears and shapes other than a dot. 

Do you have actual field experience with the Manticore that contradicts the man's assertions and actual experiences regarding the correlation of his TT plots and target predictions?

 

 

 

The point of this thread was about how people can be misled in this hobby. Furthermore, I don't need to own a Manticore to know how a plotter works. Do you need to own a calculator to know that 1+1+2?

As far as your first paragraph goes, what was claimed was, "If the target ID is lets say 24, and the ID is not round on the ID map, it my experience its been can slaw. Slightly oval a pull tab".

If the target ID is 24 like he said, then TT would show a circle. It would not show something "not round" as he said. 

He then says that if the trace is slightly oval it's a pulltab. However, if the trace was slightly oval, that's just because the ID is a spread of 2 adjacent ID's, which can (and often does) occur on any target. It has nothing to do with a pulltab itself. In addition, if a pulltab has a single ID, then the trace would be round, not oval.

BTW- I didn't say anything that would incite any drama. The only drama that was introduced in this thread, was by you.

[Chase Goldman]

2 minutes ago, Digalicious said:

The point of this thread was about how people can be misled in this hobby. Furthermore, I don't need to own a Manticore to know how a plotter works. Do you need to own a calculator to know that 1+1+2?

As far as your first paragraph goes, what was claimed was, "If the target ID is lets say 24, and the ID is not round on the ID map, it my experience its been can slaw. Slightly oval a pull tab".

If the target ID is 24 like he said, then TT would show a circle. It would not show something "not round" as he said. 

He then says that if the trace is slightly oval it's a pulltab. However, if the trace was slightly oval, that's just because the ID is a spread of 2 adjacent ID's, which can (and often does) occur on any target. It has nothing to do with a pulltab itself. In addition, if a pulltab has a single ID, then the trace would be round, not oval.

From my perspective, the point of this thread appeared to be more about you mocking others from afar who have misconceptions about the nuances of high end detecting gear without giving them the recourse to defend their position on a level playing field.  People are always going to have these misconceptions and will invariably pass them on to others who will either run with that flawed information or do the due diligence research to verify where truth lies.  Pointing that out here with your attitude is simply self serving and does nothing to help those who don't understand.  Not sure what you were hoping to accomplish here other than grandstanding about how you saved everyone from the horrors of misinformation.

It is also indeed painfully apparent you haven't swung a Manticore because you'd know that getting a single TID number is almost more the exception than the rule.   Seriously, though, the Manticore and Next Gen Equinox numbers often bounce around on isolated non-ferrous targets at depth.  Furthermore, the TT circle is not necessarily less "accurate" than the visual TID number.  In some respects it is actually a better, more informed and less filtered version of the processed target signal.  Almost a probability density plot of the most likely target IDs resulting from the variables that affect the final processed target ID number on each subsequent swing.  So idealizing to the perfect single-digit target signal is actually not reflective of the real world except when there is little doubt as to the nature of a no-brainer shallow or surface target.

Finally, I am going to extend to you the same courtesy you extended to the anonymous targets of your sarcasm and am locking this thread before you reply. I can see it is just going to devolve into one of "those" threads where you don't know when to put the shovel down while you dig a deeper hole with each reply and people just throw up their hands in frustration. You can take it up with me or Steve offline if you so wish.