Under 4 Pound, Under $2000 Gbpi Challenge

[Chase Goldman]

On 8/10/2023 at 5:05 PM, jasong said:

 

I think both the 5000 and 7000 platforms should be discontinued in terms of prospecting models as they are both fundamentally flawed platforms IMO and it's better to build something new instead. If they rehash the 5000, I hope they market it primarily as a coin/relic machine and don't count that one as a prospecting release. 

Well it looks like at least part of this is coming to pass.  At least one reputable MD equipment dealer is announcing the imminent discontinuation of the GPX 5000 (and taking the opportunity to put out a buy 'em while you can pitch).  This will be the end of the line for not only for the 5000 but that venerable GPX platform series of prospecting/relic detectors that started with the GPX 4000 in 2006 (which built upon the predecessor GP series).  The GPX 6000 is a "GPX" platform PI in name only as far as I'm concerned as none of its accessory components or coils are interchangeable with the legacy GPX 4000/4500/4800/5000 units due to it's updated electronics and form factor. 

Not surprised they want to mothball the legacy GPX platform at this point.  I'm sure it's a drag on manufacturing, repair, and logistics to keep that technologically long-in-the-tooth product line alive (the 4000 was released in 2006, 4500 in 2008, and the 4800/5000 was released in 2010, with the 4800 being discontinued in 2012).  The GPX 4500 was discontinued in 2021 so it kind of makes sense the 5000 will reach the end of the line this year.

[jasong]

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

Well it looks like at least part of this is coming to pass.  At least one reputable MD equipment dealer is announcing the imminent discontinuation of the GPX 5000 (and taking the opportunity to put out a buy 'em while you can pitch). 

Best thing I've heard all day, if true. Hope they axe the 7000 next. 😉

Will be interesting to see if they are able to exceed the performance of the 7000+X. Given how much time they've had, and how seemingly easy it was for those guys to make good coils, I'm personally expecting great things. JP has been missing so long online too that I'm guessing they have been doing some seriously extensive field testing. I'm not ready to jump on the "detecting tech is at a dead end" boat myself yet like a lot of others are, and I still want to see what else we can get. At least one more time anyways.

If we have to cut a few old trees down to make light in the forest for the new growth, I'm all for it. 

[phrunt]

It's sad to see the 5000 go if it does, that ends the mainstream aftermarket coil market for Minelab detectors except for sanctioned limited in shape, size and type of coil designs, in other words Minelab has full control of what can hit the market to suit their agenda. 

It's also a shame as the 6000 is by no means a replacement for the 5000, so very different detectors and the 5000 can do well where the 6000 can't.

I'm not fussed about new models coming out anymore, I'm happy with my current GPZ + X combo along with the 6000 and the Coiltek 10x5" for my qucik easy portable can't be bothered rigging up machine. 

I've been a bit disappointed with my two recent Minelab detector purchases so not as enthusiastic as I was once about new models. 

 

 

 

 

[jasong]

53 minutes ago, phrunt said:

It's sad to see the 5000 go if it does, that ends the mainstream aftermarket coil market for Minelab detectors except for sanctioned limited in shape, size and type of coil designs, in other words Minelab has full control of what can hit the market to suit their agenda. 

 

That market ended in 2015 when the GPZ was released.

Wether the 5000 is sold new or used doesn't make much difference now in terms of coils, no one has given serious effort to develop novel new coils for it since the spiral wound coils came out, 8 years or so ago. In any case - anyone who wants to make 5000 coils can still do it wether ML sells them new or not though, so nothing is changing there by axing the 5000.

I would have a hard time believing after the X Coils thing that Minelab wouldn't release an 8000 with a stock sufficient range of coils, or a 3rd party manufacturer already in the wings. Because really all they need to do to make a significantly better machine is two things: 1.) Concentric coils and smaller coils 2.) Lighter. 

I think they'll have some kind of coil selection. Unless it's a new type of detector again, using new types of coils. Really just a GPZ with a 15" concentric is enough improvement to be a new model, performance wise. Make it lighter, bam, GPZ 8000. So, I have to guess they'd include coils. Update the electronics to modern stuff, reduce EMI, got a good machine I'd buy.

The 6000 doesn't have a lot of coil selection, but it doesn't really need it. Honestly, I could probably never truly need anything more than one coil on it, personally. Similarly, 90% of my detecting with the GPZ is with an 8" and a 15" CC. The 4500 I hauled 6 or 8 coils around with me everywhere, thankfully no longer need to do that. The model/idea of needing tons of extra coils itself I think is getting outdated.

[phrunt]

I think the manufacturers of GPX coils are winding down production, maybe due to sales volumes, X-coils killed theirs off some time ago, Nugget Finder make no effort to put theirs on their website anymore and Coiltek have discontinued many GPX coils over the past couple of years.    It's the end of an era as discontinuing the 5000 would only speed this process up, too many coils available second hand from people upgrading to 6000 and 7000's to continue worrying about making new ones.

I was hoping they'd refresh the 5000 as a new lightweight GPX 6000 type design but retain the controls as settings controlled on the screen like any modern detector.  That would give the Axiom fierce competition and may well compete with the pending Nokta release.  It would allow them to keep the 6000 and 7000 prices sky high too.  If it still supported the aftermarket coils it would be one hell of a detector especially if the modern design handled EMI better with mono coils.  If they made it a bit more sensitive and less detection holes like the 6000 it could replace the 6000 and the 6000 become the cheaper unit being the beginners type high end gold machine.  how many of us wouldn't wish for more settings on our 6000's.

Hopefully X-coils gave Minelab some ideas of coils they can use on the 8000, and they're open to making it destroy the sales of the 6000 by having small coils available for it along with the big deep gold coils, I'm much like you I mostly only use the 8" and 15" CC on my GPZ and I have a very big range of coils but those two are the ones I've settled on which suit the gold around here and likely as you point out are the best combination for USA too.  In Australia I'd have a different selection with a larger elliptical in the mix.

The Concentirc coils cut out a lot of EMI too so people swinging the new 8000 would think Minelab have improved EMI handling on the 8000 🙂

I'm in agreement on the 6000 not needing a large coil selection, it doesn't suit large coils and has a wide range of small coils available especially when NF eventually brings out the Sadie.  At the moment I think the Coiltek 10x5" is my go-to on the 6000, I quite like the 12x7" NF but I find the 10x5" more sensitive and it has hotter outside edges on small gold and seeing that's what I mostly find it makes sense to use the most sensitive coil.  I'm looking forward to the Sadie though but ground coverage suffers.

I hope when Nokta make theirs they have listened to the public about their needs and desires for a new nugget machine, it would help with its success.

[jasong]

The thing I'm curious about moving forward, if we are still going to get new machines, is who exactly they are going to get to field test them now.

Steve has retired from testing. And these companies have made zero effort to try to contact any of the younger set of experienced detectorists, at least none that I know of, and most the detectorists I actively work with are under 50 years old now so I figured I'd have heard something by now. Maybe it's different in Australia? Or maybe they just have part timers testing? But it seems like Minelab is pretty much completely ignoring the needs/desires of the age set of users in the US that are going to soon become their prime demographic, as if intentionally. The only company that has really ever not felt like they were ignoring people under 50 was X Coils, who to me just seemed eager to get their products in anyone's hands that wanted to use them. 

I guess there is still JP but his silent absence leaves questions, no clue if he's testing machines or just lost patience with forums. I know in my case I've lost pretty much all my desire to post to the gold specific forum, but for my own reasons. 

My worry is that we are going to start seeing new releases from companies with little input from actual experienced field users. Who's Nokta getting to test? Maybe for an under $2k PI then whatever, but if it's for premium machines then this will be a massive let down to me if they start releasing pro-grade machines without putting them in the hands of people that know what they need for daily use, and are capable of identifying the quirks and errors that might seem tiny to an engineer but can be make or break for a daily prospector. Last thing I want is to drop big $ on another ML machine just to get some EMI crap that makes it literally unusable, despite less experienced people insisting it's normal or fine. If that happens again, I'm done and gone. 

 

[phrunt]

I think they need to expand their testing to a broader range of people in different countries, so many problems go unnoticed until the detectors are released.  This isn't to say the current testers were doing anything wrong I'm sure they do a fantastic job but detectors are being released to the public as a final product when they're not ready.   The 6000 with its self-generated EMI problem was an obvious one, the twisting shaft another.  Perhaps if they only had 10 people testing the 10 all received machines where the EMI wasn't exhibiting itself and their shafts happened to be good ones, maybe if they had 50 or more people testing then the problems may show themselves sooner.  Surely for detectors worth so much and so many sales expected having a good large group of testing people is viable.  Maybe they already do I don't know.  There are plenty of Detect-Spurts now that signed up to do that marketing role and maybe they do it.

The Manticore was the same, again released with problems like having ground issues for some, beach issues for others, small gold sensitivity problems all which went unnoticed until it hit the public then they're rushing to fix these things after the detector is out which can be damaging for sales.

I'm baffled how detectors get to market with problems as obvious as shaft twisting so I can only put it down to some shafts are worse than others and the limited number of testing units out there all ended up having quite good shafts but once in mass production the problem becomes evident so no amount of testing by the limited number of people doing it would show that up and if more were testing maybe it would show.

I would be their worst nightmare as a tester, I'd be complaining about everything I can think of, in hope of a better product at the end.  They'd regret having me test their machines and I would be rough with it too, it needs to be durable, I'd be trying to smash down bushes with my coil a bit like those Ikea test machines that crush down on chairs over and over again hundreds of thousands of times to replicate the use of the chair over its lifetime to ensure its durable enough.    They even have them on display in stores crushing down on the same chair for years proving its durable.  I'd find out if the GPX 6000 coils would have cracking ears long before public release like has happened.

Not that I would do it, I wouldn't like the responsibility of making sure the machine is perfect with so many people depending on me getting the job done right, and the fact I'm not qualified for the task outside of the build quality of the machine which anyone a bit rough could do 🙂 so greatest respect for those that do it and I guess they mostly lurk in the shadows as we have no idea for the most part who they are.

Nokta (Dilek) has enquired about who to be testers for their unit in the thread on it here, if you feel you're up to the task contact Dilek and volunteer Jason, I believe you'd be quite good at it as you're very critical and also a skilled user.

[jasong]

Not interested. My time and experience are valuable. If they want to pay me a reasonable wage for my time, gas, and experience then I'd be interested. Otherwise no thanks, and I already know what companies pay because I've declined a few of them already. 🙂

They want to pay a reasonable rate in return for time, experience, and gas, I might take those "opportunities" more seriously. But I'm not retired, my savings are not large, and that's only an opportunity to a person who has the means to essentially pay a company to work for them.

[Steve Herschbach]

People wonder why product testers don't find things that turn out to be problems later, overlooking the fact that companies often ignore tester feedback. If there are ten things you think need improving, good luck with getting more than a couple done.

If the Nokta or Fisher Impulse Gold was roughly equivalent to the Axiom but also fully submersible that would be enough to get my interest to the point where I might sell the Axiom to get one. I was on board to do testing for Nokta a year ago but for once they have been too slow and now I've lost interest. Like Jason notes, working for people for free is not all it's cracked up to be. Someday if either company has a finished product that I can buy I might get one but until then I will use what I have.

Maybe Gerry McMullen or Andy (abenson) would be interested in testing a new machine.

[phrunt]

1 hour ago, Steve Herschbach said:

People wonder why product testers don't find things that turn out to be problems later, overlooking the fact that companies often ignore tester feedback. If there are ten things you think need improving, good luck with getting more than a couple done.

Thanks for pointing that out, Steve, as someone in the know you'd know more than anyone about this and having worked with many companies before you would really know how it works.  That's incredible they behave that way, what's the point in having testers if you don't listen to their results.   Hopefully Nokta is more responsive to their testers on their PI.   Maybe if they have a larger group of testers all reporting the same issues it may help over a small group.

I am hoping Minelab isn't using their new Youtube personalities as the only testers and getting rid of the previous testers that were highly skilled detector users going back decades.  If I had to pick who I'd want testing my machine I'd pick the likes of JP, Steve H, Nenad etc and not some guy with 100,000 followers on Youtube as people like his videos.  Minelab hopefully have learnt a lesson about ignoring feedback on the 6000, a very costly one.  In some parts of the World they aren't even doing the EMI Fix, they get replaced detectors, know this from a friend's experience.

Testing to me seems a very critical role, they should pay people to do it to get the best of the best, not just people wanting a free detector and a bit of a Youtube following by releasing information first.