Who Makes The X-coils? Who Sells Them?

[flakmagnet]

8 hours ago, Norvic said:

Maybe even ML will reverse engineer the X coils too, but no holding breaths on that happening.

I would bet that happened almost immediately. Can't see any way ML would just sit around when new coils are being lauded by their potential customers. 

[Norvic]

Aie bet they did, Flak. My comment was a posted with the tongue in the cheek just a wee bit. Talking tongue in cheek..... there`s a bit of a rumour circulating over here in OZ, that the next batch of X coils are being forced by the authorities to come out with a Wealth Hazard Warning. I guess they`ll have a big sticker on them that says something like "Use of this product could lead to the user waking one morning with a new 4WD Rolls parked in the carport" ?

[Jonathan Porter]

20 hours ago, jasong said:

That's a good post JP.

A couple general interest questions here - are these standards set by Minelab something you can share so we can have an idea which standards they haven't met?  If confidential, does falling short of these standards mean the coils are measurably different from a coil which complies with the standards? Or are the standards mostly related to quality control issues, something like FCC regulatory issues, and not performance issues?

I'm curious because I've worked in engineering and standards can be relative in the engineering world and don't necessarily mean a product has a flaw. But in other cases that can be exactly what it means. In engineering specs are often derated, like a rope/cable may support 2x it's rated weight, etc. Or the way Intel derates various chips of the same design from the same wafer depending on the frequency it fails at. I'm just trying to understand better what you mean by the standards not being met.

Is the issue with IP related to the chip patch or is the DOD design being used in the X Coil the issue? 

 

My main role with Minelab is to use equipment in the field, at that I am very experienced. Obviously there is an issue of confidentiality and I’m pretty sure I sail pretty close to the wind sometimes. Testing methods and feedback are hugely confidential but I can assure you they are exhaustive both in the lab and also in my role in the field. For instance the 19” so called “DOG” coil performs brilliantly and provides a depth increase from 1 gram and up, I know this because I exhaustively tested this in the field throughout Australia, but alas it is HEAVY!!! Weight kills the perception of depth improvement, it requires HUGE effort to run that coil effectively. My main focus during testing centred around coil behaviour in a variety of soil types and conditions, I have numerous test sites were I perform these tests, these tests sites bring out the worst electronically in any coil and even put the genuine coils through their paces.

I desperately wanted to get the X coils over the line so something could be arranged for the chip, testing methods were exhaustive and very time consuming, a lot of feedback was given to the manufacturer and also Minelab. Unfortunately you only get one shot at this type of thing, especially with a company as large as Minelab, so coils being sold prematurely before improvements could be finalised killed off that avenue. I see a lot of negative comment here on the forum about Minelab this and Minelab that, yet Minelab were open to the idea if it could have been demonstrated the coils were  better or on par, that was the criteria. My last 22x21 Coil was really problematic especially in General Difficult, if I presented a coil like this to Minelab saying it was OK imagine what this would do to the X coils credibility?

To put things into perspective I see a LOT of GPZ 7000s in my role at the shop, hundreds of them over the past 3 years. I have many times taken people on training sessions only to discover there detectors were below par, some of these people are “Experienced” and very “Successful” detector operators yet had no idea there was something wrong with their detector. I am amazed how many people present themselves to me with their understanding and use of GPZ seriously flawed, their machines were making such a racket I’m amazed they found anything!

I see comments about justifications for side slipping Minelabs IP, anyone looking at the GPZ very quickly knows the chip in the coil connector is there to protect Minelabs IP, modifying or circumventing that chip is in essence interfering with that prevention, yes it can be done but ethically it is wrong. How you go about justifying the circumvention of that IP then comes down to how felixible you are ethically and explains the constant comments on this forum about Minelab “deserving” this treatment because they have not delivered on a promise etc, this also explains the storm of comments I have suffered through when I’ve tried to keep people informed, obviously a lot of this is directed at Minelab through me. Don’t get me wrong I put myself out there so deserve a few tomatoes thrown at me.

I could see all this coming a long time ago, it was laid out in front of me, every bump and pothole in the road,  yet I still went ahead and did it anyway (stupid idiot)! I tried so damned hard and I came so close but alas it is what it is. Do not blame Minelab for everything, there is plenty of blame to share around for everyone to get a good taste! Blaming someone no matter how deserved does not justify even worse behaviour from yourself.

JP

 

 

[jasong]

Thanks for replying. The reason I asked originally was what several posters also commented on, except I was thinking specifically in terms of jailbreaking my Android phone and how it related pretty similarly to this issue with the chipped coils. This is what I considered before I bought my X Coils:

In the case of my phones, I never felt there was an ethical issue jailbreaking them. I paid for it and I paid for the service. The OS and hardware were both designed with features and upgradability which were later specifically disabled by Verizon, who themselves never released any software to access it, but then prevented 3rd party apps from using it. A similar (though not identical) parallel to the coils. The primary purpose I bought my phone was to get internet in the field, I paid for the service, and the only way to get that service they sold me was to bypass their security. 

Verizon fought this for a decade until they finally just allowed data tethering through their own service so they could at least make some money off what people were going to do no matter what, rather than try to prevent it and fight it.  I no longer have to jailbreak my phones, and Verizon makes more money off me too because I'm willing to pay for it. Perhaps another parallel there which Minelab might learn from. They could disable the chip authentication in the firmware, charge a small fee for a user to download this patch, and still make money off X Coils even now.

However, if the DOD design itself was patented and no other manufacturer was allowed to use it at all then that seemed like a seperate issue from the chip discussion. That's why I was curious about wether it was a concern with the chip or the DOD design.

[Guest AussieDigs]

Jonathan,

you stated previously that these X coils being hand wound has the potential to be inconsistent which wouldnt suit Minelabs quality requirements. (Let me know if i have that wrong). Yet the 10k plus GPZ’s are showing a concerning level of performance inconsistency of a concerning number of units.

Im not having a dig at you, you are only relaying the likes of Minelabs policies.

Al.

[Jin]

14 hours ago, Jonathan Porter said:

My last 22x21 Coil was really problematic especially in General Difficult, if I presented a coil like this to Minelab saying it was OK imagine what this would do to the X coils credibility?

Would you say the coil is still usable though JP? Or it displayed no benefit over using the gpz19 

I was just re watching your treasure talk video (below) and it quite clearly shows that General/Difficult is the go to setting in your ground when using a larger coil 

Im a little concerned if your 22x21 displayed problems in general/difficult as im getting that coil. 

As the Russian manufacturer is only building two 22"x 21" coils (as far as im aware of) i doubt much improvement has come about since making your one 

 

 

The quote below mentions salt as being a problem once a coil become to large. Was this one of the problems you encountered with the 22x21? Possibly saturation also?

Quote

There's a key issue to think about when using larger coils which is mainly why you don't see Minelab going much above 19" and I notice no one has mentioned it here in all the dialogue. 

SALT

JP

 Hopefully not to many questions JP and you are in a position to answer some of them if you have time.

Edit: No need for a reply to this post JP,  I found you have answered most of these questions in previous posts. 

[egixe4]

Hi Jonathan ,

Re your statement below

"I see comments about justifications for side slipping Minelabs IP, anyone looking at the GPZ very quickly knows the chip in the coil connector is there to protect Minelabs IP, modifying or circumventing that chip is in essence interfering with that prevention, yes it can be done but ethically it is wrong"

 

I don’t see anywhere in Minelab’s documentation supplied with the GPZ

that mentions any installed security device that hobbles/disables the use of 3^rd party coils.

There is mention that only Minelab coils can be used on the GPZ.

I guess its now buyer beware, and any potential customer should now be asking the question, does this machine have any such security devices fitted and what do these devices do, to limit my rights as an end user.

As far as I’m concerned, if the device has not been disclosed or even mentioned then it’s tough luck Minelab.

 

[madtuna]

yep and I saw the chip in the coil plug and very quickly knew I had no  freaking idea what it did or was there for.

So is anyone who ever modded or used a modded machine unethical?

[Jonathan Porter]

4 hours ago, madtuna said:

yep and I saw the chip in the coil plug and very quickly knew I had no  freaking idea what it did or was there for.

So is anyone who ever modded or used a modded machine unethical?

I’m not asking or telling anyone how they should behave, I can only say how I feel and behave on the subject. The only reason I keep mentioning it is because of all the, what I consider, poor justifications and excuses being mentioned here on the forum. Conscience votes are just that, life is about continual choices being made around what you are personally comfortable with according to you own personal code, I’ve stated mine.

The fact that so far Minelab have done nothing about it suggests they are not too worried, but you can never tell with big corporates, which is why I put so much effort into trying to legitimately access the adapter. Yes the coils aren’t perfect but in a lot of areas they are OK and they DO offer more choice in the form of bigger and smaller sizes and less weight.

JP