Need A New Pi For Beach Detecting

[schoolofhardNox]

8 hours ago, midalake said:

I am fighting through Black Sand conditions right now that might be close to that. I don't like that the poster did not show his settings. So easy to change the limits on a Manticore to notch a nickel. I was planning to start a full Black Sand discussion here and will, but I need a few more days of comparing machines and different modes. 

I know there are some old school people that will tell you to test a nickel when looking for gold. There is even one of these old schoolers that own their forum.  Testing today's MF machines on nickels and saying it is comparable to gold is the most absurd thing in the metal detecting community today.  Hopefully I can get this discussion going after the weekend. 

 

1 hour ago, cjc said:

What Im saying is that a nickel is  more suseptable to detection  problems that are a result of  sensitivity too  high, bias too  high, EMI or just bad ground.  In effect the more sensitive and exact a machine is--the  more  this is true.  Could also be a "bleached" nickel.  Try another target before  deciding that the Manti--with  all  it's choices and fidelity is oh-so- terrible--andthat no adjustment could solve the  problem.   Your test is interesting, but not conclusive.

This why Im about sick of trying to jam my books down the throats of  people  who don't think  that basic detector theory is  of any  value.  As machines become  more involved people  want to rely  on the tech (presets for example) alone without having the broader understanding of  ground, detection, detector features and  target types.  When I use a term like "signal  balancing" not many even  know  whats  being  balanced in relation to what--why  bother? They  are thrashing about in effects, as if they were causes. 

cjc

Look, I agree conditions matter, so does the composition of the nickel. I'm going to opt out of further discussion also because my meaning of the criticism of MF was lost somewhere in the post. So in a nut shell, If my pinpointer picks up a target better than a very expensive machine, there is something up with the technology. I guess I'll stick with my PI and find what must be thousands of nickels that machines have not seen on my beaches. They should all be there ☹️ It's a wonder anyone found them before. Must be some magic in the Deus II, Excalibur and Sovereigns that have, and are still finding nickels on those same beaches.

[cjc]

6 hours ago, schoolofhardNox said:

 

Look, I agree conditions matter, so does the composition of the nickel. I'm going to opt out of further discussion also because my meaning of the criticism of MF was lost somewhere in the post. So in a nut shell, If my pinpointer picks up a target better than a very expensive machine, there is something up with the technology. I guess I'll stick with my PI and find what must be thousands of nickels that machines have not seen on my beaches. They should all be there ☹️ It's a wonder anyone found them before. Must be some magic in the Deus II, Excalibur and Sovereigns that have, and are still finding nickels on those same beaches.

I agree with Steve--its the SMF platform and how it relates  to ground and targets--a broader cause.   Hope the broad-based testing model  helps you  with your next experiment.  But when I say "jam my books down  anyone's throat" I mean  the detecting public--not anyone in particular and  it's a bit harsh to frame it that way.  When I started basic theory and skills werre the first thing we learnt.  Now it's all settings, "tweaks" and watching for numbers on a screen.   Best of Luck.

cjc

[GB_Amateur]

3 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

It’s impossible to educate people who already know everything and so in my case at least I’m content to just get on about doing what I do, as I quite literally have better things to do and will not participate in discussion nor respond to messages from this point forward. I’ll stick with basic admin work here that is needed to keep the forum going, like the table crash that occurred last night. Other than that, thank you all for putting up with me all these years, and best wishes to everyone in the coming New Year and beyond. Steve Herschbach, signing off.

Either I hope I misinterpret what you say, or hope you will reconsider.  Although it's true that you've built a community here that is likely the most knowledgeable and helpful regarding metal detecting of any out there and as a result might be able to survive without your posts, the fact is that many of us look forward to you "clearing the air" on anything from the most basic question all the up to the very deep and detailed.

Decades ago (1970's and early 80's) there was a TV commercial with the punchline "when E.F. Hutton talks, people listen."  At this site, replacing 'E.F. Hutton' with 'Steve Herscbach' is the perfect analogy.  Please don't let a few antagonistic encounters spoil the best commodity here.

[EL NINO77]

When I tested my detectors in 2021...on variously mineralized black sand....
I also did a few tests for  1 gram gold  and gold 0.1 gram gold ...on a very concentrated box with Black Sand with 25% of magnetite in the sand mixture...
You can see the results of some tests here:

In addition to my VLF detectors, I used a PI Garrett ATX as a reference detector..

Minelab EQUINOX 800

MXT PRO...

 

 

XP ORX

[j71038]

19 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

It’s impossible to educate people who already know everything and so in my case at least I’m content to just get on about doing what I do, as I quite literally have better things to do and will not participate in discussion nor respond to messages from this point forward. I’ll stick with basic admin work here that is needed to keep the forum going, like the table crash that occurred last night. Other than that, thank you all for putting up with me all these years, and best wishes to everyone in the coming New Year and beyond. Steve Herschbach, signing off.

 

16 hours ago, GB_Amateur said:

Either I hope I misinterpret what you say, or hope you will reconsider.  Although it's true that you've built a community here that is likely the most knowledgeable and helpful regarding metal detecting of any out there and as a result might be able to survive without your posts, the fact is that many of us look forward to you "clearing the air" on anything from the most basic question all the up to the very deep and detailed.

Decades ago (1970's and early 80's) there was a TV commercial with the punchline "when E.F. Hutton talks, people listen."  At this site, replacing 'E.F. Hutton' with 'Steve Herscbach' is the perfect analogy.  Please don't let a few antagonistic encounters spoil the best commodity here.

As GB said, please keep posting. The more voices and expert opinions on a forum strengthen and support it and provide us new people access to expertise we do not have.

For the vast majority of us, this is just a hobby.

It is interesting to note that this post started out about a basic PI machine (Sand Shark) and has morphed into a discussion about the latest and greatest VLF from Minelab.

I think if manufacturers want their products discussed on the internet they need to add oodles of user settings to keep us discussing and debating the merits of each setting and configuration possible.   😎

 

 

 

[midalake]

23 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Guilty as charged. And I’ll admit I find your statement even more absurd. But I’m just an ignorant old schooler so what would I know.

Gosh Steve, I am not a name names kind of guy. But there is more than one old schooler that owns a forum website. You are NOT the person I am referring too.  I don't write books, nor do vids.......😎   

I am VERY old school myself, but still keep my ears open and try stuff. 

23 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

Nickel, ring, brass casing, silver dollar, it does not matter. In extreme ground any VLF including a SMF falls on its face. Just because people have not experienced it they think it’s not true and won’t listen to people who know better.

Well yes! SMF can and does fall on its face in Black Sand.   But we can discuss some ways for SMF to cut it better. There are ways, and some do it better than others. 

[schoolofhardNox]

9 minutes ago, midalake said:

Gosh Steve, I am not a name names kind of guy. But there is more than one old schooler that owns a forum website. You are NOT the person I am referring too.  I don't write books, nor do vids.......😎   

I am VERY old school myself, but still keep my ears open and try stuff. 

Well yes!  But we can discuss some ways for SMF to cut it better. There are ways, and some do it better than others. 

Look, this has morphed into something it was not supposed to be. I think the OP has all the information that he needs about PI's to make his decision. If I had the power to close this post, I would do it. But what it has exposed is the need for some to tell some of us that we don't fully understand how to use MF.  What I was getting at, and that's when things really went sour 🙄, was the fact that we should not be discussing the clever ways to tweak MF to get it to do what we want, but rather the fact that you have to do it in the first place to get it to respond to a very shallow nickel.  How quickly we forget that tweaking a machine to get the most of it was for the most dedicated and experienced hunters. Are we now to believe that everyone has to tweak MF to get it to work for us?? My beaches are nothing compared to those who test completely black sand beaches, yet my results are very similar to the masking that is being experienced with MF. Instead of defending MF, why not question why it can't go through black sand like other machines can? Just think, if PI machines started to function like the MF does, would this conversation be the same?

*** As for you Steve, please don't cave in to those who want to teach us something most already know. The flow of information, good or bad needs to be here. If people like you fall into the background, then we lose that critical information. 🥺 I for one will continue to post about the good points of any metal detector I use as well as the bad points. My suggestion to anyone regarding my posts is: if you are not willing to listen to the issues I have and discuss them without bypassing the intent of my post, then please use the function to ignore me.

[midalake]

4 minutes ago, schoolofhardNox said:

Look, this has morphed into something it was not supposed to be. I think the OP has all the information that he needs about PI's to make his decision. If I had the power to close this post, I would do it

Yup. 😎

[Lead Detector]

I avoided this topic as I have no valuable knowledge to offer the OP. I however got curious of why it was such a popular subject and read through some replies.  I now realize I may have some advice worth mentioning.  Here are my definitions of a few words that I think may help some people.

"Arguing" the act of convincing someone they are wrong.

"Educating" the act of sharing your knowledge and experience to help others make the best choices for their situation. 

"Drama" something nobody needs in there life

I personally prefer "Educating" without any drama. 

It's just my opinion ofcourse, but it's worth what you paid for it 😁

[Tony]

Well at the end of the day, the OP bought not one but two Sea Hunters so not a bad outcome to this thread really 👍