How To Make Yourself Crazy!

[Steve Herschbach]

Some random notes, and if you don't know what I am talking about as regards some detail of this machine or that I apologize. 

Well, I finally updated my XP Deus with 11" coil to the version 4 update. Then I hauled it and the Nokta Impact with 11" and Teknetics G2 with 11" out for several hours of cross checking coin type targets. The G2 is a Gold Bug Pro variant running at 19 kHz and I put it up against the Deus at 18 kHz and Impact at 20 kHz. I acquired the G2 new recently to use specifically as a benchmark unit because I am very familiar with it and because in my opinion it does 19 kHz as well as it can be done. I spent hours swapping machines as the hunt machine, then cross checking the undug targets with the other two. Lots of settings tried, with the main goal to try and find some deep fringe type target or target in trash where any machine can get a clear and definable edge.

Well good luck with that. All I mainly did was impress myself again with what a little powerhouse the Gold Bug Pro/G2 is for the price. It is fairly mineralized ground but not the worst, 5 bars out of 7 on the G2 Fe3O4 meter, ground balance about 86. The only real "aha" moment was in learning the Impact really likes to upscale shallow small foil when in 5 kHz mode, but shoves the id back down to where it should be at 14 kHz or 20 kHz. All the machines like to upscale deeper aluminum in this ground.

All three seemed to get tricked in much the same way on certain targets, like a deep pull tab reading like a dime. For gold hunting purposes I do not mind machines upscaling low conductive targets, and in fact the Impact 5khz mode may have a benefit in nugget detecting because it does want to push light foil (and therefore small gold) higher. But for coin detecting upscaling aluminum is annoying. Pretty much par for the course however for mid to higher single frequency machines.

I found running the Impact in VLX1 was nice as I could flip over just one click to the Gen(D) mixed mode program for a dramatically different read and better target definition. Target id numbers in my ground are slightly higher in the "expanded ferrous" modes like VLX1 and VLX2 compared to DI3 and DI4.

The Deus V4 Gold Field program does seem to pack some extra punch now, be fun to get it out nugget hunting once the elliptical coil hits the streets. The new Deep mode really seems great while the new Hot mode is, shall I say it, interesting. First time I have used the X-Y screens also. 

The G2 is what it is, almost no controls but it gets the job done with what it has, and good solid id. Deus and Impact in the other hand have countless options and programs to try, but by and large there is no magic bullet. Three great machines, I can hunt with any of them. It will take a lot more hours to sort it all out.

I find when running machines that are all hitting the VLF Wall that it is the "other things" that get my notice. The Impact is obviously the heavier of the three (4 lbs 4.7 oz / 1946 grams), although very well balanced, so I give the feel on my arm award to the G2 (3 lbs 1.5 oz / 1404 grams) and the Deus (2 lbs 4.0 oz / 1020 grams with 11" coil and control box). The G2 and Deus are neck and neck in the comfort department FOR ME* but the G2 feels ever so slightly better to me, I am guessing because the coil is lighter on the G2. The G2 slays both the Impact and Deus for speaker volume if run without headphones, but on the other hand it has no volume control so would be too loud for some situations.

Been awhile since I ran a Gold Bug Pro / G2 unit and caught myself when switching from disc mode to all metal when cross checking at one point and forgetting that the "big number" changes from target id in disc mode to ground phase in all metal mode, so I was looking at the ground phase instead of the little speedometer thinking it was target id for a couple goes. That one quirk always had me liking the F75 versus the Bug in all metal. I wish Fisher made a 19 kHz F75!

*On arm comfort is a very subjective subject. In particular it has a great deal to do with the size of a persons hands plus length and thickness of their forearm, and their height. You really can't take any one persons word on this subject as it is like buying hiking boots. What fits one person does not fit another. It is not all about detector weight by a long shot. Balance is very important as is the all important hand grip. I am 5' 11" with forearms on the thinner side and smallish hands. For instance, my forearm really bounces around in the large Impact armrest area. The Deus armrest which may be too small for some fits me better. For me personally, the 3.5 lb Teknetics T2 / Fisher F75 is the most comfortable detector I have ever used. It is superbly balanced and something about the hand grip that narrows to the top as it cants forward really makes my hand happy. I can squeeze the armrest shut to fit my arm. So if you find the F75 to be a great fit for you, my comments apply to you. If you hate the T2/F75 setup then what I have to say is less important.

[Steve Herschbach]

I have a theory that bad ground essentially removes what small differences exist between most VLF detectors. My ground cuts depth approximately in half compared to Florida soil for instance. So a dime there at 11", which is approaching air test type depths, only makes it to 6" here before turning into a ferrous reading.

So I air test the Impact, for example, against the G2 and see a solid 1/2" advantage on a dime. But in the ground that advantage compresses to only 1/4" which is actually almost nothing. I mean, if I go over ground with a machine that goes to 6", and come along with another that goes to 6-1/4 inches, don't expect the coins to just leap out of the ground. And the reality in nearly all the cross testing I do is that the differences compress to almost nothing at all. It is real hard to find a single frequency VLF that really "goes deeper" than the best of what we already have. One might get me thinking I have it on one target, but then the situation will reverse on a different target.

Nugget hunting and hunting in a carpet of nails are a bit different, but for park style coin detecting there are a pile of single frequency machines that will serve just as well as another. The tech really is maxed out, and most all the difference I think we see out there says more about the operators than the detectors.

[Guest Tnsharpshooter]

Using multiple detectors to detect and cross check one another is a pain.

It is WORK not enjoyment as far as I am concerned.

I try to just do spot checks sometimes,,and base doing this spot check on just how a certain target responds,,how deep,,how coil position sensitive is the signal,,and how does the iron tone report near the target.

I have to ask,,what level on Impact did you have the ID setting at?? Low, intermediate or  High on Impact?? Default I think is intermediate.

One nice thing about Impact,,uaing non normalized setting,,,a user can draw some pretty good conclusions on targets,,,as far as conductivity and quality of metal.  Won't work for gold though.

For example,,,if using the high freqs detecting,,and you get a 90s reading target,,flip to 5khz and you get a 90s reading,,most of the time= iron.

I usually let the amount of iron tone I hear drive me a lot of times if the TID reported is not ideally aligned when checking a target comparing the different freqs with Vdi non normalized.

Just the other day I was out with a friend in a new to me site,,,I got a signal reading in the 90s uaing both 14 and 20khz with smallest coil,,,5khz wouldn't hit the target period.

I dig it just because I hadn't found anything else really,,yep one of those 22 short rims fire cases about 5" deep.

Actually for the day,,I dug little trash unintentionally with Impact,,I did dig one junk target,,one of those small lids,,like off of a medicine bottle,,,I dug it cause when I switched to 5khz the ID stayed in the mid 50s.  Some times those really worn dimes can do this. 

Deus 4.0,, I agree it does seem to have more punch,,actually for modern site mixed with old site,,,I think 3.2 version might be better,,but if just an older site 4.0 is better.

Using 4.0 those pesky 22 cases seem to hit real hard tonally,,a person will get fooled on them easier than 3.2 in my opinion.

I have never used a Gold Bug.

Remarkable forum.

Thanks for sharing Steve.

 

[Steve Herschbach]

I was running the Target ID Depth setting at the default Intermediate (Medium) setting.

Warning - another Steve ramble....

I want to note I am not at this point trying to push the units to the max, with the exception of the G2, where max is just the default mode. I am not really trying to determine anything in particular for anyone but myself, which is why I rarely post about these sorts of comparative tests that I am always doing. In particular I do not claim to be some sort of whiz bang fantastic coin and relic detectorist. I have a more casual approach and what I find time and again is that for me personally over analyzing targets is a waste of my time. If I am that unsure of the target I will normally just dig it. I want a machine that feels good and sounds good and that basically just delivers some sort of "dig me" response with a minimum of fuss. When doing tests like this I "Mode Flip" a lot looking for modes or settings that work best for me. As a general observation each mode detects the target, but just delivers different visual and audio results. I find it true time after time that if faced with machines with lots of modes, I settle eventually into just one or two modes for two specific types of hunting I do, and all the rest of the modes end up getting ignored.

The best example I can think of is the MXT with its Coin & Jewelry Mode, Relic Mode, and Prospecting Mode. In general if you do lots of cross checking you will find the MXT will see almost all targets just as well in any of the three modes. All that changes is the way the audio works and the meter responses change to match the mode. In the end you settle on the mode that just works the way you like best for what you do most. For me on the MXT the Relic Mode pushed all the right buttons and I almost never used the other two modes. My F75 spent nearly all its time in Boost All Metal.

You face a similar issue as regards the Impact or Deus. What mode or modes work best for you personally? What I see are two scenarios. I mostly just want to hunt, get a target, recover it, and move on. Efficiency is the name of the game. Getting the ultimate in depth may not be the best idea for this type of hunting, just overall separation and clean signaling. Then there is down and dirty pounding some specific spot at a crawl trying to eke that one last great find out of the ground. This often requires a totally different setup and frame of mind.

I spend most of my time covering ground and recovering targets. I count hours and ground covered as more important than another 1/2" for the majority of my detecting. So for me personally I am seeking what for me is the most efficient detector, not necessarily the deepest. Yet for specific site/patch pounding maximum depth and/or target separation are all important, and so that does also factor into what I am doing. That is where I end up with one mode I use 90% of the time, my "hunt mode", and then a mode for those times I am pounding a location, a "patch killer mode".

I have to admit that coin detecting for me and gold prospecting are just different. When nugget detecting it is generally just dig it all detecting, and so all that matters is pure horsepower. It makes choosing detectors pretty easy, with clear differences observable in the field. Toss in trying to discriminate modern mixed trash in your average park setting however, and a whole different thing happens. First, I am doing it less for a pound of gold and more just to have fun. Swinging a GPZ 7000 is not what you do just to have fun. Coin detecting in a park however I am just having fun, and so the choice of detector for me does tend to be more about which one enhances the fun factor. And since I jewelry hunt more than coin detect, there is a good chance I will just fall back into digging all non-ferrous targets anyway. It was kind of bugging me chasing just coins yesterday while passing on lots of what were clearly aluminum targets - except they may have been gold!

[Steve Herschbach]

On the subject of efficiency. I am a prospector first and foremost. I spend 90% of my actual hours metal detecting looking for gold nuggets. What do I use?

No nugget detector is perfect for all detecting in all locations. Unlike coin detecting the gold varies by mining district, and so what works well in a large nugget district does not work well where no gold can be found larger than a pinhead.

I do chase larger gold but want as much small stuff as I can find at the same time. So I normally swing a GPZ 7000 with 14" coil as the machine with the best response on the largest range of gold targets. In an area with flyspeck gold I might have to break out a Gold Bug 2 with 6" coil to get the job done. And for big deep gold a 19" coil might have to get put on the GPZ. But for the vast majority of the hours I have to just choose a machine to use and the GPZ 7000 with 14" is the most efficient use of my time. No matter what however, I may miss small nuggets my Gold Bug 2 would hit or big deep nuggets the 19" coil would have hit.

The same thing goes I think for coin or jewelry or relic hunting. There is no perfect detector, and the best of the best are all so good it really will drive you crazy if you think you can find one that clearly rules on all targets under all situations. At the end of the day we have to pick one detector with one coil we are going to use today for whatever we do, and all the factors that go into making that choice mean each detector will always have plenty of fans convinced their detector is "the best".

[johnedoe]

LOL.... After reading this I can see why the V3i would get a little tedious for you Steve...

[Steve Herschbach]

On the contrary I really enjoyed the V3i. I kind of regret selling my last one and I have about decided that I need to get another one when I can snag a good deal on a brand new one. The V3i is like owning a college course in metal detecting technology, and it can be used to illustrate almost any concept known in metal detecting. Frequencies, filters, both transmit and receiver gain, on and on. Anyone that can own a V3i, read the manuals, and fully understand what each and every control really does and how it interacts with the others will truly have passed a graduate course in metal detecting. I am not saying you have to do all that to own one and use it effectively - far from it. But I am going to treat myself to another one eventually and I swear I will keep the next one. The fact is I do not think there will ever be another detector like it so it deserves a permanent place in my collection.

For actual use however I am of the Dave Johnson school of detector design. Dave was involved in most of the VLF gold machines on the market including your MXT. Dave favors lots of power hidden behind simple control interfaces and packaged in good ergonomic housings. As much as I am attracted to complexity as the basis for having plenty of tuning options, the reality for me at least is that I just want to turn the darn things on and get on about my detecting! Here is a quote from Dave at http://www.fisherlab.com/hobby/davejohnson/Interview with David Johnson.pdf

"I like products that are easy to use. I don't like complicated stuff. I don't like gadgets and don't own a television, stereo, or cellphone. But I do have a computer of course; I wouldn't be able to do my job without that! Sometimes in order to achieve good performance with a simple exterior requires a lot of complexity hidden inside. The CZ's are an example: horribly complex inside the box, but simple outside. The new GB/G2 machines have a very simple user interface, but to get the performance and smoothness of response we had to hide a lot of complexity in software. Some customers like a complex user interface with lots of programmability, and there are companies out there who target their designs to those customers. We can't do everything, so we concentrate on what we're good at, which is exterior simplicity. I do believe this is the wave of the future, but only time will tell if that prediction is correct."

Picture from today - more cross checking.....

[Rick K - First Member]

I have been told that Dave keeps threatening that his next detector will have one control - marked "On" and "Off".  Don't know if that would ever happen of course!  But the possibility of highly adaptive and intelligent ground response cancellation, even without discrimination, would be truly innovative.

[fredmason]

Man; just reading all that could make me crazy-er...I chose simple!

Thanks for doing all that writing and cross checking.

fred

 

[Mark Gillespie]

Many good points, one I 100% agree with is the ergonomics of the F75 and Gold Bug Pro, very easy to swing for hours.  The ground where I live also reduces the detection/ID depth to about half.  Most good coins, deeper than 7" will give a solid iron tone and ID in the extreme bad ground areas.  That is one reason why I use the TDI even though it loves iron.  I keep waiting for 1st Texas to release the machine you had posted and hope it will be a variant of both a PI and VLF when it comes to ground rejection, or rather see through abilities.  I can only imagine a machine with PI functions with good ID capabilities.  I guess time will tell. 

Also wondering if the new Minelab Monster will hurt the Gold Bug sales at Fisher.  If it is prices right, simple to use and performs = to or > than, the answer is quite obvious.