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Argyris

Low Weighted Multi Vs 5/10 Khz To Avoid Tiny Targets

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Hi everyone, glad to find this wonderfull forum ūüôā¬†This is my first message here so I'll make my intro with an Equinox 800-newbee question:

I must state that I have very limited field time and experience with my brand new Nox 800...and only used it in a local beach since now (dry part) to learn it some. But, my first observation is that even in Beach 1 mode (which is a low weighted multi freq mode) I'm getting super tiny targets, usually tiny micro bits of aluminum or lead. I know that for many this is an advantage in order to hit micro gold jewelry and such on the beach...but sometimes it gets really frustrating and time consuming to chase super tiny bits of metal that my PI pinpointer struggles to hit. Trully, I wasn't prepared for such a sensitivity (which is good for the Nox) but isn't always what I need in trashy sites when I'm playing the odds some and focus only in rings or coins.

So, my understanding based on the above initial beach experience is that, if Beach 1 is so sensitive to tiny staff, then Park 1 (which is also low weighted but not that low weighted as beach 1) should be even more sensitive to tiny micro sized targets. These targets even they are so tiny, they still register VDI >5 cause they usually are micro bits of melted aluminum (nuggets), tiny can slaw or tiny lead, so rejecting 0-5 vdis doesn't get rid of them like it does with small foil.

Now...I'm asking this having inland hunting in the back of my mind also: when hunting in old farm fields with lots of such aluminum/lead tiny pieces, I was used to run in 8 khz with my old Deus to get rid of such tiny targets and still be able to hit high conductive coins or decent sized hammered coins and other decent sized low conductors, gold/silver jewelry etc. My first Nox experience shows that even if I use park 1 mode in these farm fields, I'll still hit hard on these tiny junk pieces even if i notch 0-5 vdis....so I was thinking to maybe use Park 1 in single freq @5 or 10 khz in such cases, and go after all small or decent size coins & rings, but not the super tiny 1-5 mm diameter junk...My understanding, however, is that with single freq I'll lose the advantage of VDI stability in depth that multi offers.....and maybee will have up-averaging vdi issues..... What are your thoughts on this?

Take as a fact that, time efficient wise, both when inland hunting or beach hunting, I want to focus only in gold/silver rings and small to decent size coins, but eliminate all tiny 1-5mm micro staff (even if I lose a gold chain/earring on the beach or a really tiny hammered coin on the field)...With the Deus @8khz this strategy was working pretty good and I was able to hit even small thin silver 10mm hammered coins...but not the 1-5mm junk....what about the Nox, what would you propose?

ps. Below, a sample of these tiny aluminum bits...they read at 12-15 vdi range so unfortunatelly I can's avoid them through notching cause I'll lose the gold also.

So I need a strategy that eliminates by size (tiny ones) and not by conductivity!

Best,

Argyris

 

 

tiny aluminum.jpg

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Welcome to the forum Argyris.  You may know me also as vferrari from other forums.

Some notes on single frequency:

When you go to single frequency, the mode's Multi IQ personality pretty much disappears. Iron Bias becomes non-operational, ground balance, compensation, and tracking are more "traditional" single-frequency-based, losing some of the advantage of Multi IQ, multi-frequency compensation for salt, for example which is why beach mode does not "allow" single frequency.  The only vestige of the original mode are the manual settings for discrimination/notch, tone customizations, and recovery speed settings.  This means that no matter what mode you initiate single frequency from, all you have to worry about are the manual user settings (recovery speed and tone customizations), tone bin breakpoints, and discrimination settings you desire.

Therefore, consider using single frequency more as a target interrogation tool rather than as a mode you would normally search with unless EMI issues are forcing you there or you are targeting specific target types,

Your are not really going to lose much in the way of TID stability if the target is a keeper (i.e., gold or hammered silver), but you may lose stability on the aluminum which would be a dead giveaway.  That is why I recommend that you use single frequency primarily as a target interrogation tool better characterize aluminum targets.

Your other "tool" for characterizing micro targets is to use the built-in pinpoint moder which is very good at giving you a mental picture of the target footprint.  You can practice using the pinpoint mode to differentiate between micro targets vs. rings and coins.  You will notice a difference and can make your decision whether to dig for the target.  On the beach, I just scoop the target regardless.  In dry sand, I let the scoop "filter" the target.  Micro targets will spill out and if I am not in a mood to look for earring backs or studs, just let it go if it manages to filter through the scoop but will flatten the dump out with my foot just to make sure I don't pick up a visual on bright metal.  In wet sand, similarly, I dump the  scoop on the surface and flatten it out and run the coil over the dump and see if I am getting a target of significant diameter, otherwise move on.

Gold mode is another useful tool off the beach to give you an idea of whether you are going after a micro target because it has motion-based VCO-like pitch audio.  So the intensity and "duration" of the target audio signal gives you clues as well.  Can't use gold mode in wet salt sand, though, too unstable.

Finally, you can also try to "filter" and interrogate using sensitivity, which is theoretically possible if the target is in-situ because the deeper micro targets should disappear fairly quickly.  I have not really tried doing this.

For land hunting, I would go ahead and use either Park 1 or Field 1 which should filter most micro jewelry and use single frequency to interrogate suspect micro targets.  For the beach, use the beach modes for stability and the pinpoint mode.  Single frequency might be too unstable on wet salt sand for interrogation.

Finally, if you are on land/beach, have taken a plug/scoop because the interrogation techniques have , and are using your handheld pinpointer but cannot readily locate the target, then you have your answer.  Move on, you don't have to get a visual on it to know for sure.

Hope this helps.

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Why no mention of Beach 2? It is salt compensated, and therefore will automatically eliminate low conductivity targets. But yeah, Park 1, 5 kHz is another option.

Generally tiny targets that read high are relatively rare. When I hunted in the UK I was knocking out target id 6 and lower to eliminate small targets, but still got little copper and brass bits that read up in the teens. Again however, they were not so common as to be more than an annoyance.

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Welcome, Welcome!  Argyris,

I've found generally, that at the beach, you can discern the micro targets by the sound profile! I personally like them, so i dig them!   

You might try some air tests at home with the objects you are trying to bypass! While not ideal, it's a controlled environment where you can train your ears, without distraction! It works pretty well!

I recently did this with 39 of my wife's rings, and some chains! I was able to classify the rings into nine groups! They were anywhere from 33 to 8,  in Park 1! While this is far from conclusive in actual soil conditions! It did open my eyes to  some commonalities; and marked differences, in signals, and metal composition!

  I'm right there with you man; the parks are my Achilles Heal with the 800, at the moment!

It's a process!¬† Good luck!ūüĎćūüĎć

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Many thanks for your great inputs guys! Nice to meet you everyone here, and Chase, really glad to see you here too!)

Back to the subject, in fact I was forcing myself to NOT think of the single freq solution, since that will eliminate Equinox' main strength and divergence from other machines like Deus (multi freq operation) so I hear you Chase...BUT I have a really hard time with these tiny micro aluminum melted nuggets, especially in my local pebble beaches where target recovery and "diging" through the pebbles is already a nightmare....

Anyway, I'm seeking for the best solution to eliminate all micro staff but 5 khz maybe isn't the answer...and the Nox seems extremmely sensitive even in low weighted modes! Now, regarding your thoughts:

- Steve, I'm located in Greece...I don't know if it's a European thing but these tiny nuggets of (melted?) aluminum are everywhere especially in our beaches. And yes, even they are tiny ones, their VDI is unusual high in the teens range so I can't reject them by ID cause I'll miss the gold staff...if they were at 0-5 vdi I would be happy! Thankfully, in farm fields aluminum tiny nuggets are not that common, but there I have another nightmare wich is tiny aluminum can slaw. However, here in Greece and especially in my usual hunting farm fields, finding some 2.500+ year old little silver coins are very possible so I have to be extra carefull when eliminating targets... With the Deus @8khz I could still find these little 10mm+ little treasures (silver most) and still could eliminate the super tiny aluminum in either case (tiny nuggets or tiny can slaw)..that's why I thought the use of 5 khz as a solution with the Nox...

- Chase, I tried using the pinpoint mode to identify the targets as you suggested, but this tiny bits of aluminum nuggets where giving me the immpression of a very deep coin when pinpointing: veeery short response and veeery low pitch and low volume too from every direction....so I still can't distinguish tiny solid aluminum from maybe a deep coin...however I do need more practice with pinpoint...is the first time I use such a mode (Deus lite experience only since now) and maybe should try the gold mode also for sizing. Unfortunatelly, the scoop solution to let this tiny bits fall and ignore is a no-no in pebbles....

So what's left:

- Steve's idea on Beach 2 Mode: will definetelly try this in the beach....With Beach 1 I could definetelly hit the hardpack depth (+/- 1 ft depth) under the pebbles for coin/ring size targets (weak & low volume response but clear enough to make me stop), so I will give a go to Beach 2 mode to see if it can help with these tiny aluminum nuggets but still be able to hit a coin/ring size target at hardpack 1 ft depth such as beach 1 does

- Chase's idea to reduse sensitivity: In the beach I mentioned, I was indeed running Beach 1 too hot with sensitivity @22...so maybe I'll force myself to lower it some to get rid of tiny aluminum but need to verify if I can still hit the hardpack level-depth under the pebbles

- Chase's idea to leave whatever my handheld pointer can't hit should also be a solution to my problem and save some digging, and hopefully I won't ignore a thin chain instead that pointer also doesn't hit!

- Joe, thanks also mate! I'm already air tested these tiny aluminum nuggets but tone wise, I can't distinguish them vs a ring or coin yet...they do sound weaker in volume but a deep ring/coin will also sound that way..:/ and yes...these tiny staff, beach or inland, are such a pain for me also....

 

Thank you all!

 

 

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This is one of those situations where the audio of the Deus kind of helps sniff out the modern trash vs. a deep coin signal.  Right tool for the job.  That being said, I would really listen for audio nuances between an actual deep coin and the micro aluminum.  Both may not give the most stable VDI but if you switch to 5 khz, to interrogate the target, once a signal is acquired in your search mode (e.g., beach 1 or 2), I bet the deep coin signal will lock in better than the micro aluminum.  Try it.  Remember, I reserve the user profile slot as my interrogation mode whether it is a single frequency mode or gold mode or just Field 1 vs. Field 2.

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3 hours ago, Argyris said:

Beach 2 Mode: will definitely try this in the beach

Just a reminder - beach modes are not just for beaches, no more than park is for parks and field is for fields. Put the names aside and just try things without letting the names create misconceptions.

In parks I often deal with shallow stuff like can slaw and foil by using the DD tendency to triple signal on shallow stuff. Quite musical in wide open 50 tones! It is risky passing up shallow stuff, but I’ve been known to do it anyway. :smile:

Good luck!

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Yeah, sounds like a large pebble beach could be tougher to discern tiny "pebble" sized aluminum! Not an issue in Florida!¬† I can pick them out with my pinpointer fairly easy! And ocassionly get a golden or silver reward!¬† Inland,¬†i have the same issues with lawnwower induced shredded aluminum piece's! You all must be Big into bonfire induced,¬†melted cans over there!ūü§£¬†¬†

  I wish i could be of more help! But Steve and Chase blow me out of the water, with their collective experience! 

Keep us up-to -date though!! I am very curious how you get to the solution! And post some scale pic examples of what,¬† and where, you are experiencing the most trouble! And some cool finds!ūüĎćūüĎć

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Hi Argyris,

I don't use a Equinox but I often run into the same situation with hot rocks and tiny trash targets.   My solution is to hunt in a single tone audio mode.  Either a monotone or a VCO audio mode.   The tiny stuff will sound tiny and the good targets will sound robust.   

I don't know if the Equinox offers a single tone audio mode?

HH
Mike

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For what it's worth a friend of mine has done well on Florida beaches using Beach 1 high sensitivity in the wet sand as the waves go out. I will be trying this myself (due to Beach 1 micro targets and falsing) next time I go. I always check other settings to meet the soil and EMI conditions.

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