Need A New Pi For Beach Detecting

[EL NINO77]

Bklein I was thinking about recovery speed..... at Manticore...

  Otherwise, various pinpointers are relatively resistant to the mineralization of the terrain, especially when they have GB adjusted to the terrain...

[bklein]

I believe it was set to 4.

[kac]

As for the Sea Hunter, you can use the MS2 headphones if your not diving. Better audio and volume adjustable, much more comfortable.

[j71038]

I am very happy to read all of the responses from the experienced people in regards to the Sea Hunter. I too have purchased a couple of them. I am still a newbee in terms of metal detecting so I actually began to wonder if I had made an awful mistake. My criteria for selection was based upon construction of the unit for the purposes of diving.

The SH2 control box is built from a very heavy plastic material. I suspect Delrin but honestly don't know. As with other diving electronics the battery compartment can be flooded and not harm the electronics since it is sealed separately. This is not something I have tried out but it is comforting to know. There is a repair video on YouTube,

At the 5:35 mark it shows the front face plate of the unit is sealed by double O rings, which gives you more confidence in the submersion capabilities of this unit. I watched a disassembly video on the Legend and if I recall correctly I believe only a single O ring was used. As Steve has mentioned previously the 10 ft depth rating is more for temporary submersion so those that dive with them may eventually have a bad day. My Legend will remain for use on the beach or for wading only.

Also, the SH2 has user replaceable coils and headphones. This would allow you to take an extra one of each with you and change it out should you damage them or the cables. The underwater environment can be unforgiving and with the reduction of peripheral vision while wearing a dive mask and heavy SCUBA gear at some point something may get broken. I would hate to take it on a trip only to discover that your plans fell apart due to one mishap. My wife and I were diving is moderate surge in Roatan years ago and my fin accidentally came into contact with a sharp piece of coral.  Sharp enough to cut through the thermoplastic Mares Quattro fin. Better the fin than my foot. I'd sure hate to graze a piece of coral like this with a unit that I could not replace the coil or headphones on as the cable would likely get severed. Mind you the likelihood of this happening is very small but not zero.

All in all I liked the construction very much and hoped that Garrett had made the electronic capabilities to match. From the responses I have seen it appears that it may prove to be no slouch in that regard either. I have learned quite a bit based upon the experienced people here on this forum and feel more comfortable about my purchase decision. I realize that this machine is best used in situations where a PI will shine, such as heavily mineralized beach and salt water environment.

One other note. It is interesting how the internet can influence your purchase decisions when you are not knowledgeable about a subject. Because I saw very few reviews regarding the SH2 and what I did see was lackluster at best I became rather concerned I had made a mistake. My reasons for selecting the SH2 could have resulted in me purchasing a dud. Fortunately due to this post and responses my faith has been restored in my purchase decision. I can now see how easy it would have been to purchase a cheap detector off Amazon due to glowing reviews and being misled severely. When you don't know what you don't know only forums like this, where experienced users off tips and advice, can provide you with worthwhile information.

[cjc]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:07 PM, schoolofhardNox said:

That's why my Manticore sits in the corner now. That is the main reason I use a PI on beaches almost exclusively.  I think when I posted that I had issues at a beach and finally brought out the PI, some people probably thought  "user error" ☹️ I think the OP will be happy with the PI they choose over any VLF/MF if they are on those kinds of beaches. Thanks for that video. It clearly explains the difficulties of MF. The Garrett Carrot did a better job of finding that nickel  🤣

Nickel is a partly  magnetic coin.  That's not to say that a  a magnet will pick it  up, but it's properties are very, very different from gold.  A detector which is engaged in processing out inconsistent / random indications such as the ground will  have no problem mistaking that type  of target for the background.  Really more of  a demo of target types  than anything to  do  with how good  the Manti is--unless you hunt exclusively  for nickels.  A little basic theory goes  a long way.

A detector does not  punch though the ground to detect  a target--it separates  the two.  Sometimes the two are  near identical.  Overall the ground's signal  is larger,  thus, the higher you turn the machine up, the less separation you  get on this type of target. Try  testing your VLF  indoors and  in partucular, not what happens when you slow it right down.   At a certain point it has time  to make the distinction between EMI and target.  The ground's "interference" is lessor--but no different.   Where you have a lot of  electricity in the ground--such as near  a big hotel--this masking is even greater.  Not to say t hat a nickel is that bad of a tester--just that its not all that distinct from  the ground. 

cjc

[schoolofhardNox]

3 hours ago, cjc said:

Nickel is a partly  magnetic coin.  That's not to say that a  a magnet will pick it  up, but it's properties are very, very different from gold.  A detector which is engaged in processing out inconsistent / random indications such as the ground will  have no problem mistaking that type  of target for the background.  Really more of  a demo of target types  than anything to  do  with how good  the Manti is--unless you hunt exclusively  for nickels.  A little basic theory goes  a long way.

A detector does not  punch though the ground to detect  a target--it separates  the two.  Sometimes the two are  near identical.  Overall the ground's signal  is larger,  thus, the higher you turn the machine up, the less separation you  get on this type of target. Try  testing your VLF  indoors and  in partucular, not what happens when you slow it right down.   At a certain point it has time  to make the distinction between EMI and target.  The ground's "interference" is lessor--but no different.   Where you have a lot of  electricity in the ground--such as near  a big hotel--this masking is even greater.  Not to say t hat a nickel is that bad of a tester--just that its not all that distinct from  the ground. 

cjc

I disagree wholeheartedly with you. I'm not quite sure what your point was, but trying to say the nickel is not all that different from the ground at that shallow of a depth, I feel is incorrect. A radio shack detector from the 70's could find that nickel. There is something inherently wrong with MF when it comes to certain beach conditions and that is being experienced in other videos as well. A lot of people try and protect Minelab, but the evidence is out there. Trying to somehow say that the video posted was not the best test is absurd. It doesn't matter what settings, programs or and other factors were present. The machine should have screamed on a nickel at that depth. Deeper and all bets are off. This is one of the few times I disagree with you.

[midalake]

8 hours ago, schoolofhardNox said:

There is something inherently wrong with MF when it comes to certain beach conditions and that is being experienced in other videos as well. A lot of people try and protect Minelab, but the evidence is out there. Trying to somehow say that the video posted was not the best test is absurd.

I am fighting through Black Sand conditions right now that might be close to that. I don't like that the poster did not show his settings. So easy to change the limits on a Manticore to notch a nickel. I was planning to start a full Black Sand discussion here and will, but I need a few more days of comparing machines and different modes. 

I know there are some old school people that will tell you to test a nickel when looking for gold. There is even one of these old schoolers that own their forum.  Testing today's MF machines on nickels and saying it is comparable to gold is the most absurd thing in the metal detecting community today.  Hopefully I can get this discussion going after the weekend. 

[cjc]

9 hours ago, schoolofhardNox said:

I disagree wholeheartedly with you. I'm not quite sure what your point was, but trying to say the nickel is not all that different from the ground at that shallow of a depth, I feel is incorrect. A radio shack detector from the 70's could find that nickel. There is something inherently wrong with MF when it comes to certain beach conditions and that is being experienced in other videos as well. A lot of people try and protect Minelab, but the evidence is out there. Trying to somehow say that the video posted was not the best test is absurd. It doesn't matter what settings, programs or and other factors were present. The machine should have screamed on a nickel at that depth. Deeper and all bets are off. This is one of the few times I disagree with you.

What Im saying is that a nickel is  more suseptable to detection  problems that are a result of  sensitivity too  high, bias too  high, EMI or just bad ground.  In effect the more sensitive and exact a machine is--the  more  this is true.  Could also be a "bleached" nickel.  Try another target before  deciding that the Manti--with  all  it's choices and fidelity is oh-so- terrible--andthat no adjustment could solve the  problem.   Your test is interesting, but not conclusive.

This why Im about sick of trying to jam my books down the throats of  people  who don't think  that basic detector theory is  of any  value.  As machines become  more involved people  want to rely  on the tech (presets for example) alone without having the broader understanding of  ground, detection, detector features and  target types.  When I use a term like "signal  balancing" not many even  know  whats  being  balanced in relation to what--why  bother? They  are thrashing about in effects, as if they were causes. 

cjc

[cjc]

32/  Appendix III: Testing the Manticore as You Hunt

Trial, error and testing is the “meat and potatoes” of becoming accurate with the Manticore.  The more prepared you are from testing under controlled conditions the better armed you are against frustration in the field. While there are lots of test models that rely on cross-comparison between targets buried at various depths, the model I favour is based on the idea that to be certain of something--you need to try your best to disprove it. The idea is to push the detector until it stops performing.  You then have a good idea of when this is happening in the field.  Begin with a buried target of the type you hunt.  Then try some basic experimental design.  Let’s begin with some definitions:

1/ Independent Variable:  This is the factor that does not change.

2/ Dependant Variable: This is the one that does change.

3/ Intervening Variable: This is the one that causes the change in the Independent Variable--the middle one--the “monkey wrench.” 

So, if you take a basic test on our buried target, the ground conditions and target itself are the Independent Variables--unchanging--for now.  The signal tone is the Dependant Variable. (Loud / quiet / broken, no sound would be some possible outcomes…).  Then bring in some Intervening Variables: These might involve increasing the Sensitivity, changing the Recovery Speed or Ferrous Limits--it’s your choice. 

This model gives you an organized framework with which to test not only single Intervening Variables--but also several at one time--to begin to understand the interactions.  Conversely, next--the ground conditions or type of target themselves could be used as the Independent Variable (for example black or normal sand as separate trials or gold versus silver) --with an individual setting or complete mode as the Intervening--and again--the audio tone as your test result (Dependant Variable).  While all this may sound a bit stuffy--it’s the way to get a good clear understanding of what the Manticore will and won’t do in the various modes and settings--under different actual conditions.  This is much more “hands on” and fluid than

  

Simple “on the fly” experimental design is a good way to learn more about your machine as you hunt.

 some artificially created test garden in your backyard.  As well--these are tests you can perform as you hunt.

Another way to do this is to “start with an in-ground signal and try to make it worse.” This might involve changing modes, increasing the Sensitivity, or changing the Recovery Speed or Ferrous Limits.  The great thing about this kind of testing is that you can begin with extreme settings and learn what bad tuning sounds like.  This tells you what to listen for in more typical situations.  Using this model some interactions to look at would be how:

·       Again, the general principle is that when you move too far from the pre-set range with any of these controls--there needs to be compensation with one or more  of the others--or at least your sweep speed.

·       Remember, begin with extreme settings to create a “benchmark” for each negative effect.  This gives you the clearest data--models to watch for in the field.  Being able to make these “ear to coil” calls is the way to accomplish a balanced signal under any conditions.  You first have to know what an unbalanced one sounds like.  Besides signal tone, meter stability is another Dependant Variable to experiment with.  Then of course there’s the old test garden Dependent Variable of depth…

·       A more complete list of audio characteristics to look for would be: wide / narrow / “peaked” / loud / faint / clipped / weak / “skewed” (forward or back) / flat / blaring / “squeak” / relationship to threshold…(is the response “flat” or does it “jump out?)”

·       (I would include “bittyness” here but that’s more of an “in-ground overall signal characteristic).

All of these can provide useful target information and inform your settings tests.

The key is to begin with extreme settings so as to be able to recognize the various performance changes.  This will help to develop your tuning skills a lot.

From: "The Minelab Manticore: Tips, Tricks and Settings"

by clive james clynick. 

[Steve Herschbach]

On 1/1/2024 at 9:24 PM, midalake said:

I know there are some old school people that will tell you to test a nickel when looking for gold. There is even one of these old schoolers that own their forum.  Testing today's MF machines on nickels and saying it is comparable to gold is the most absurd thing in the metal detecting community today. 

Guilty as charged. And I’ll admit I find your statement even more absurd. But I’m just an ignorant old schooler so what would I know.

I’m pretty sure neither schoolofhardNox nor I need anyone’s books shoved down our throats. I have tons of experience in ground with real targets where the best SMF machines fail on any and all targets after a few inches. Try to show evidence though, and either the evidence or the knowledge level of the person doing the showing is attacked as inconsequential or ignorant. This whole nickel thing is a red herring. Even whether the particular videos involved have issues or not do not matter. Nickel, ring, brass casing, silver dollar, it does not matter. In extreme ground any VLF including a SMF falls on its face. Just because people have not experienced it they think it’s not true and won’t listen to people who know better.

It’s impossible to educate people who already know everything and so in my case at least I’m content to just get on about doing what I do, as I quite literally have better things to do and will not participate in discussion nor respond to messages from this point forward. I’ll stick with basic admin work here that is needed to keep the forum going, like the table crash that occurred last night. Other than that, thank you all for putting up with me all these years, and best wishes to everyone in the coming New Year and beyond. Steve Herschbach, signing off.