Wireless Or Not Wireless, That Is The Question

[Steve Herschbach]

3 hours ago, Daniel Tn said:

That was actually the coil Dimitar sent to us to try. No, it did not seem to help any.  In disc mode there were too many high pinging false signals. The only way to really hunt with it was to use the Mix mode audio and listen for the all metal "ramp up" sound to a target.  The Deus 1 was horrible at this place which is why I really was surprised at the Deus 2.  The best VLF machine for it though is still the F75/T2 with aftermarket coil.  A coil like the 13" Ultimate and those machines in Motion All Metal is probably the deepest I've had there for a VLF.  You can't go by ID though...you have to just hunt by audio and dig a lot of iron. The trick to it was that 90° turn in which you could pass up most nails and wire by simply ignoring the rapid double beeps.  The bullets would sound good all the way around but the ID might only be an 11-13 down in the iron range.  Even though that was a great technique, it still pales in comparison to how much superior a pulse machine is in dirt like that.  I'm glad not all of our dirt here is that severe. If it were, a pulse machine would be all I would have. Fortunately it's just places here and there and more common in fields than in woods.  I was hoping the Manticore would be better than that, as it seems to really handle well in our more common soils.  

You just nicely summed up Daniel why most serious gold nugget prospectors have a PI. I agree on the F75 all metal also by the way - best VLF all metal mode I have ever used. If a person wants an alternative to PI at a low price and super ergonomic, they need look no farther than using a F75 in all metal mode. It won't handle hot rocks like a PI though so beware that.

Few people have ever disputed that the Deus is the better dense trash hunter compared to Equinox, and looks like the Manticore vs Deus 2 story is playing out the same. Which kind of sucks for me as I'm not a fan of the XP system in general when it comes to menus and wireless coils. I prefer the Minelab wired coils and menu setup. Don't try to convince me otherwise - everyone has preferences and those are mine. But when it comes to performance and audio the XP and I get along just fine, and end of the day that's the way I swing.

[Daniel Tn]

5 minutes ago, Steve Herschbach said:

You just nicely summed up Daniel why most serious gold nugget prospectors have a PI. I agree on the F75 all metal also by the way - best all metal VLF mode I have ever used. If a person wants an alternative to PI at a low price and super ergonomic, they need look no farther than using a F75 in all metal mode. It won't handle hot rocks like a PI though so beware that.

Few people have ever disputed that the Deus is the better dense trash hunter compared to Equinox, and looks like the Manticore vs Deus 2 story is playing out the same. Which kind of sucks for me as I'm not a fan of the XP system in general when it comes to menus and wireless coils. I prefer the Minelab wired coils and menu setup. Don't try to convince me otherwise - everyone has preferences and those are mine. But when it comes to performance and audio the XP and I get along just fine, and end of the day that's the way I swing.

I agree!  I'm actually not a fan of the wireless stuff. If the Deus 2 had the menu and screen layout of the Manticore, along with a wired coil, I'd be one happy dude and have just 1 machine and no real need for anything else.

[palzynski]

2 hours ago, Rick N. MI said:

Great comparison hunt. I wish Minelab hadn't made the Manticore like the Equinox. I loved the Equinox in the water but wasn't a fan of it relic hunting. I would like to see a wired Deus 2 also.

With a wired Deus2 you would have to forget the lightweight . First a coil cable weighs around 80g , second  there must a CB mounted on the shaft  , then add 150g .   At end the detector would be 230g heavier than a WS6 master version , which means a 230g/850g = 27% weight increasement ...

And the Deus2 would loose a major advantage vs the competition . In other words an heavy Deus is not a Deus any more ... 🙂

[Steve Herschbach]

23 minutes ago, palzynski said:

With a wired Deus2 you would have to forget the lightweight . First a coil cable weighs around 80g , second  there must a CB mounted on the shaft  , then add 150g .   At end the detector would be 230g heavier than a WS6 master version , which means a 230g/850g = 27% weight increasement ...

And the Deus2 would loose a major advantage vs the competition . In other words an heavy Deus is not a Deus any more ... 🙂

It is really hard for Deus users to accept that people might not want their wireless coils. Excuses flow like water whenever it gets mentioned. Nobody is saying stop making your wireless Deus. Why deny others the possibility of having what they want, simply because it is what you prefer?

[palzynski]

18 hours ago, Steve Herschbach said:

It is really hard for Deus users to accept that people might not want their wireless coils. Excuses flow like water whenever it gets mentioned. Nobody is saying stop making your wireless Deus. Why deny others the possibility of having what they want, simply because it is what you prefer?

I dont think I am the only one who prefers light detectors . Think about children , women , people having health issues and more generally all the users for who detection cumfort is a priority . And precisely the wireless technology allows to design light machines suppressing the coil cable and the need of a CB mounted on the shaft ..

I understand that wired coils may have advantages for example for beach water hunting but I dont think that XP will make a wired version of the Deus . Future will tell ...

[phrunt]

I think XP should have made coil cables an option, they have the ability to let you screw on a silly antenna to keep the wireless working in water, why not let you screw on a coil cable too.  Many wireless products have an option of cable as well,

If they did that the Deus machines would be far more appealing to me.  I'm sure water hunters with the Deus would rather screw on a coil cable than an antenna.

[EL NINO77]

Wireless coil, wireless RC Unit, and wireless WS headphones/ and wireless pinpointer / are an important attribute of the XP Company in the Deus1-2/ORX detectors about how a modern detector should look and work.

It's hard to object to such a procedure, if such a detector is technically successful..., and works really well... and this procedure makes it possible to make a really lightweight detector...

the only disadvantage may be that the coils are more expensive than classic coils with a cable... on the other hand, the same procedure allows you to easily make a lite version of the detector where only the coil and the WS4-6 headphone module are needed...

Even though I own many high-end detectors whit cable coils - where I strongly value the truly universal possibility of using affordable additional coils... which makes it possible to significantly strengthen the already good detection properties of these detectors..

.... simply wired and wireless coils have their pluses and minuses.. but each of these options can be used well..

[Chase Goldman]

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

I think XP should have made coil cables an option, they have the ability to let you screw on a silly antenna to keep the wireless working in water, why not let you screw on a coil cable too.  Many wireless products have an option of cable as well,

If they did that the Deus machines would be far more appealing to me.  I'm sure water hunters with the Deus would rather screw on a coil cable than an antenna.

Because if it ain't broke, don't fix it.   Also, that's why God created options like...the Manticore. 

I understand where you are coming from on this, believe me.  But just as you wireless coil haters keep telling us D2 people to not try to convince you that wireless is better, you need to flip that sentiment around, and think about it from the rabid D2 user's perspective. 

You are going to get pushback from me on making the case for wired on D2 because it is, in fact, a technical regression for the Deus platform in terms of the added weight and complexity that is needed to accommodate what appears on the surface to be technically simple but in reality is anything but that - primarily because of the design decisions that have already been made by XP and are now water under the bridge.

For one thing, the antenna if installed and secured properly, works exactly as if the coil were hard wired and can be permanently left in place if desired or removed when not needed.  So why does it need to be screwed on (including requiring an additional connectors to accommodate it more parts more weight and more potential failure points)?  Once you've got the antenna sorted, it works quite well.  No connectors to break, requiring wholesale repair or replacement.  The antenna is cheap and easily replaceable if it does eventually fail (never heard of one actually failing btw).

If you are talking about a traditional coil cable, then things get more complicated.  The wireless architecture is fixed in the sense that active electronics exist in the coil because there is target signal preprocessing going on in addition to the wireless radio electronics.  That is not going away with wired coils because that would require a platform-wide architectural change to both the coil and the remote peripherals to accommodate the wires and additional external processing for a "dumb" coil and since real power and signal is now flowing through them, more complex (i.e., heavier, thicker) cables and connectors - further growing the size of the peripherals. 

Believe me.  Deus fans embrace the modularity and light weight of the platform and live with the quirks/shortcomings that come with total wireless and would not appreciate this "upgrade" as the downsides/compromises necessary literally outweigh the upside for those of us who've successfully used the Deus/Deus 2 for a number of years.

But if you really want to know why XP is not going there, it is because the Deus is XP CEO/CTO Alain Loubet's baby and no one is going to convince Alain that Deus needs to go wired.  Just believe me on this one.  And from the looks of the popularity of D2 in Europe and the US, there is no compelling reason for XP to do so from a business perspective.

When it comes to design decisions wrt wireless coils you literally hit a fork in the road, either you are all in on wireless or not.  If you try to accommodate both then you are just making design compromises that emphasize primarily the worst vice the best of both worlds.  XP made their decision to march to a different design drummer and I don't think they are inclined to look over their shoulder and re-think that decision.  From a business perspective, it makes sense to differentiate yourself from the competition rather than emulate or copy them if you've got a successful approach to skinning the cat a different way.  And for now, they have the totally wireless, ultralight detector market pretty much to themselves, especially after the Air Metal Detector effort failed to deliver.

So if you want wired, go with Nokta, Minelab, Quest. Garrett.  I hear they all make pretty decent wired detectors. 

Live and let live in this case.  

[Carolina]

1 hour ago, phrunt said:

you screw on a silly antenna

No offense as you are a big contributor to this forum with many interesting articles. Why be so harsh on the Deus ll?  I own 19 detectors now and it and my Fisher AQ are the deepest. It is my most versatile detector also. Unlike other detectors it tells me the frequency used for each 12 programs which is of great importance to me. And the antenna just clips on, not screws. Nothing silly about this machine phrunt. Again thank you for your many articles as they are all very informative. Your off just a little on the D2 in my humble opinion.

[Steve Herschbach]

I find arguments suggesting that XP can't and won't make a wired version of the Deus if people want one to be ludicrous. Just keep mouths shut, do not ask, don't suggest? Is that how we get desired things, just be silent? You don't have to ask for a wireless XP because it exists. It's not irrational to suggest a wired version. This whole right and wrong convince people of this and that misses the point entirely, which is there is no reason XP can't do it. They can't make both? What? Why? They have made many wired detectors in the past, and can do so in the future.

Despite what people think they are not serving certain market segments and could expand their reach with more options themselves, rather than forcing people to buy the competition over a stubborn insistence that their way is the only way. Saying they will never make a wired detector ever again is mind reading and predicting the future all balled up in one. Flat out poor business also for anyone that knows business. If you don't like it, go buy the competition? That's not how you beat the competition, that's for sure.

For every argument you have Chase about how wireless is so wonderful I could offer a counterpoint as to why I don't care about those things, and how there are deficiencies that I do care about. But again, I'm happy you are happy, and so you should be. But if you think the case for wireless is airtight and everyone should just accept it is so - well, no. I swear, it's like the "Cult of Wireless" and you sure don't want to challenge the members!