Whites MX Sport Waterproof Metal Detector

[tvanwho]

_{Hmm, for $799 , I might have to sell my AT Pro , Headhunter Diver, MXT , and Compadre and get me an MX Sport...sure beats $10 grand for a ZED..}

 

_-Tom

[Steve Herschbach]

OK, for Paul (CA),

The White's M6 and then MXT Pro both offer a 7 tone target id option. White's published the actual tone scheme for the M6 but I have never seen it actually published for the MXT Pro. I can only assume they are the same unless anyone knows otherwise. I detailed the tone scheme when I did the first published field test of the M6 at White's M6 in Hawaii and added notes on probable target identities for each range. Here it is:

White's M6 Target ID & Tone Ranges With Common targets In Each Range (Probably applies also to MXT Pro)

-95 = 57 Hz (Very Low) Hot Rock
-94 to -6 = 128 Hz (Low) Iron Junk
-5 to 7 = 145 Hz (Med Low) Gold Earrings, Chains - Foil
8 to 26 = 182 Hz (Medium) Women's Gold Rings/Nickel - Small Pull Tabs
27 to 49 = 259 Hz (Med Hi) Men's Gold Rings - Large Pull Tabs
50 to 70 = 411 Hz (High) Zinc Penny/Indian Head Penny - Screw Caps
71 to 95 = 900 Hz (Very High) Copper Penny/Dime/Quarter/Dollar

Paul's issue was with the tone difference between ferrous and non-ferrous being hard to discern; if you look at the chart that area does overlap and so digging Med Low tones can result in both small non-ferrous and small ferrous items.

The M6 only offers single tone or 7 tones. The MXT Pro additionally offers the 2 tone Relic mode, with the demarcation between high tone and low tone being variably adjustable via a control knob.

The MX Sport offers 1, 2, 4, 8, and 20 tones as detailed earlier in this thread. For now, I am assuming the tone scheme is derived from the MX5 which has 1, 2, and 8 tone options.

Now, one thing it is very important to note about the White's machines in general and the MX5 and MX Sport in particular. Their discrimination modes differ from many on other detectors in that they do still have a threshold sound. Most discriminate modes on most detectors are "silent search" modes with no threshold. Silent search is nice if you like silence, but you lose important feedback from the ground and from discriminated targets. With White's machines in discriminate mode the threshold can "null" or go away for a couple reasons. Usually it is because you have gone over a rejected target. So in the single tone mode you really have two responses, the positive accepted response, and then a threshold null response on rejected targets. Now, if you hate all that you can just turn down the threshold, but I think having this ability is a very desirable thing. Not only are you getting feedback on how much trash you are going over, and therefore how much target masking might be occurring, but excessive nulling can indicate a ground balance issue if you are running in fixed ground balance. It may indicate you need to hit the ground grab button.

On the MX5 two tone mode and I assume MX Sport also accepted targets at or above 0 produce a high tone, accepted targets below 0 produce a low tone, and rejected targets produce a null. A key thing here compared to the standard MXT Relic mode is the tone break here is factory preset a 0 and apparently cannot be adjusted. That is actually true of many machines so not unusual in any way but it is a difference between the MXT two tone mode and MX5 two tone mode.

The four tone mode just adds two tones on the high end to split up the non-ferrous area into three zones.What I am most interested in for this post in the 8 tone mode and how it differs from the 7 tone mode on the MXT Pro/M6 above. From earlier in this thread the MX Sport 8 tone mode is defined as:

8-Tone ID:

•Large Iron (lowest)
•Small Iron
•Foil/ Small Gold
•Nickels
•Pulltab
•Screwcap
•Zinc/Indian Head Penny
•Dime – Dollar (highest pitch)

Now, the most obvious difference here is that on the MX Sport the break between ferrous and non-ferrous tones does occur at VDI 0 instead of the M6 method of straddling -05 to +07. To avoid ferrous by tones the M6 in effect forces you to go to a medium tone with VDI of +08 and higher. The M6 choice was I think unusual and people will relate better to a break right at zero VDI. You can still go conservative and dig some ferrous in hopes of getting gold by accepting the first ferrous region if you wish.

Now, here is where the MX5 Owners Manual might be able to help us out a bit. From that manual page 13:



What you can see is going to 8 tones from 7 and shifting the tone scheme has allowed for quite a bit more tonal resolution in the non-ferrous range. Assuming the MX Sport shares the MX5 8 tone scheme we can combine the above information and additional notes from me and get this:

8-Tone ID:

-95 to -21 = Large Iron (lowest tone)
-20 to 0 = Small Iron/Tiny Gold
+01 to +14 = Foil/ Small Gold/Women's Rings/Platinum/More Foil
+15 to +29 = Nickels/Beavertails/Eraser Heads/Small Mens Rings
+30 to +49 = Pulltabs/Medium Men's Rings
+50 to +59 = Screwcaps/Large Mens Rings
+60 to +69 = Zinc/Indian Head Penny
+70 to +95 = Dime – Dollar (highest pitch)

Unfortunately, never having used the MX5 I have no idea what the hz tone spreads are and have not found it published anywhere.

From there, we jump to a 20 tone mode, a separate tone for each of the MX Sport twenty target id segments or bins.

Tones and hunting by ear can be the absolute best way to hunt in my opinion, the key being to find a tone scheme that works for you. Some people find too many tones to be too busy; others rely on more tones to offer more information they can use. For me, using a large number of tones and then looking for targets that really hit hard on one particular tone response versus fluty multiple tones is a key cherry picking strategy that does not work with too few tones. Another issue that can develop unfortunately is hearing problems, and so fewer tones can help people with poor hearing better hear the difference between tones as the breaks are more distinct. Four tones can be too few for some, twenty too many, eight might just be the trick for lots of people.

I sure do not want to give the impression this is all new stuff woo hoo oh wow or anything like that. Tone id and tone schemes have been around for ages. I just wanted to dig into this as much for myself to learn more about the MX Sport as anything else and there are few better ways to hammer something into my head than studying up and then typing it out. So there you go!

[gambler]

awesome steve.(30 minutes ) I got buried at work.

[Ringmoney]

Do you know if the MXsport will have a mixed mode audio?

[Steve Herschbach]

Relic mode is listed as mixed mode. Are you aware of any other waterproof detectors that have a mixed mode option? I can't think of any.

White's MX Sport Product Details Page

[tvanwho]

Steve,

Can you tell us why gold jewelry in particular sounds just like aluminum trash,even to the MXSport ? They are entirely different metals, just seems like they should respond differently to a detector so as to disc out the aluminum?

-Tom

[Ridge Runner]

Hi Tom

 From the time i had my first White's ID detector you can take  a hand full of gold rings and they all will fall into the trash area. Anything that hits in the high and low range of ID 20 you need to dig it.

  Before we had ID I found more rings than I ever did with the one that did. I think in away having a detector with ID has made us lazy to some degree.

 Just maybe a detector with more tone ID's can give us all of what you want. I need to move up to something other than my eagle 2 but it's been my best friend  for a long time. I know if I'm calling a detector friend I do need to get a life. Well it's never been in for repairs and never let me down in the field.

The Best

Chuck 

[Steve Herschbach]

Metal detectors do not see metals, they see conductive and magnetic items. Any two items with the same conductivity reading produce the same target id and therefore tone. In terms of conductivity, gold and aluminum overlap and appear to a metal detector to be the same thing. Lead also closely overlaps gold, much to the dismay of nugget hunters, who rarely deal with the aluminum problem jewelry hunters face, but dig bullets instead.

[Wayfarer]

This is a very interesting discussion regarding the tone arrangement on the new MX Sport. 

I hunt almost exclusively in 2-tone relic with an original model MXT.  As Steve points out, everybody's different, so having lots of tone options is good.  Try a variety and see what works for you.  

For me, hearing everything with the adjustable tone break is what works.  I can hear everything and let the audio tell me if there are two targets right next to each other, which unmasks a lot better than simply silencing the rejected target.  Having the adjustable break with the knob allows the user to adjust for the conditions and predominant trash type at the particular site.  My technique is a little more visual than Steve's but similar.  I listen for ANY signal over the tone break point I've set, then see what the VDI numbers tell me.  I can frequently ID the two targets by watching to see what VDI numbers the signals "cluster" at, kind of like what the old White's Signagraph used to show.  Maybe it's an old habit carried over from 10+ years of XLT use, but I like the simple 2-tone audio (of the MXT) to tell me if a signal id worth investigating, then will use a combination of the audio and VDI to indicate whether there is a "good" target among an otherwise messy audio signal. 

I'm slightly worried that the new MX Sport won't allow the user to adjust the tone break point.  If so, then that would be a loss of capability, especially for someone who likes the MXT's Relic 2-tone.  The manual is clear that the MX Sport will have the relic mixed mode (yay), but it is unclear whether the tone break will be adjustable. Time and field reports will tell.

It's heartening to see that at least the MX Sport is going to preserve the Mixed Mode audio of the Relic mode.  One of the great things about the original MXT is that it has the capability to still report very weak targets in All-Metal.  A skilled user can listen carefully for these faint repeatable all-metal signals and get a LOT more depth than in disc mode, on the order of 20% more in my experience.  The audio of these really deep targets will tell you a fair amount of information about a deep target if you sweep it from different directions.  As long as there is not trash too close nearby you can usually pick out a deep coin pretty well, especially in the "hotter" audio trigger forward mode.  Personally, I'd be a lot more disappointed if the MX Sport dropped the true mixed mode audio than if they dropped the adjustable break point. 

These are a few examples of the little nuances of the MXT that IMHO made it an all-time great detector.  I really *hope* White's was able to carry that MXT "DNA" forward into the new MX Sport.  Anxiously awaiting the first field reports from experienced MXT users!

And I can attest to the fact that the tones on the MXT Pro are the same as on the M6.

[Steve Herschbach]

The question about Relic mode adjustable tone break was asked on the White's forum at http://forums.whiteselectronics.com/showthread.php?75041-Can-you-tell-us-more-about-the-new-MXSport&p=980917&viewfull=1#post980917 and vaguely answered by Steve Howard with:

"Changing the Discrimination pattern is going to change the Relic modes tones for specific targets, depending upon either accepted or rejected. It is not identical to the MXT ALL Pro, where you have the three different options at the push of a button."

Either the question was not clearly understood, or that is vague marketing speak for "No".

I am just not seeing it. Discrimination and tones in the MX series appears to be based completely on the concept on target id segments or bins. There simply does not appear to be a fine variable control. You can change the tone or volume or each bin and accept or reject it, but not change the predefined target id ranges set up at the factory for each bin or target id segment.

Pretty much what you see with Garrett Ace or Minelab X-Terra detectors. The MX Sport is fairly close to the Minelab X-Terra 705 with its 28 target id bins.

White's MX Sport Product Details Page

I see the MX Sport being offered now at $749 for pre-orders so there you go! Lotta machine for $749. Compare that to say, a Fisher F19 for $749.