Deus Deux Very Solid Tid

[F350Platinum]

10 minutes ago, NCtoad said:

If you’re digging in high iron trash areas don’t discount discount lower id’s as the adjacent trash will pull the id down.  I’ve dug mercs as low as 18.  In that particular instance there was an old rusty bicycle fender right next to it.  

Yep that would fall into the 16-18 bin where I would definitely dig it. My last Merc (yesterday) was a 28 in the middle of a ton of iron tones, I'm digging that every time. I'm using the 10x5 in most of my exploits. 🙂 I'm watching and listening. That new Xpointer I got found it quickly!

[Chase Goldman]

19 minutes ago, NCtoad said:

If you’re digging in high iron trash areas don’t discount discount lower id’s as the adjacent trash will pull the id down.

Though I agree with you here in regards to Equinox, we are starting to veer too much into Equinox discussion/comparison territory in this Deus II specific topic within the XP forum (I know that I may have contributed to this by referencing 50 tones which is an Equinox feature but it was in the context of Deus full tones) 

That being said, I will try to gently get this back on topic and note in reference to a point I made in another Deus II thread that the discrimination feature on Deus appears to mitigate ferrous down averaging of non-ferrous target IDs (in contrast to what you correctly pointed out as an issue on Equinox) and this is one of the main reasons why I avoid running Deus with no discrimination.  The iron volume feature (also absent on Equinox) enables you to run disc with the aforementioned advantage it brings to TID accuracy while still hearing the iron.  Also, running at reasonable levels of disc (10 or less) on Deus appears to have no noticeable adverse impact on depth or separation performance.  FWIW.

 

[GB_Amateur]

1 hour ago, Chase Goldman said:

The iron volume feature (also absent on Equinox) enables you to run disc with the aforementioned advantage it brings to TID accuracy while still hearing the iron.

Chase, could you explain that?  Do you have a threshold discrimination (which eliminates ferrous and also some non-ferrous) but then allow some of the ferrous to sound off anyway?

[Chase Goldman]

46 minutes ago, GB_Amateur said:

Chase, could you explain that?  Do you have a threshold discrimination (which eliminates ferrous and also some non-ferrous) but then allow some of the ferrous to sound off anyway?

It's pretty simple in concept, you are basically enabling just the audio of the discriminated targets to sound off in your headphones.  Anything that is detected below the discrimination breakpoint is heard as a "ferrous" tone unless you set iron volume to off.  You don't know what the ferrous ID is, you just know it's less than the disc setpoint you set.  The detector, through the discrimination filter, ignores these targets when integrating the discriminated non-ferrous target ID, so that keeps what the disc filter thinks as ferrous from affecting the non-ferrous IDs.  Remove the disc filter, and mixed ferrous/non-ferrous can combine to give you down averaged target IDs in the presence of adjacent iron. It's one of those secret sauce filters so it's not clear what is actually going on underneath the hood, but it is more sophisticated than simple TID based audio masking like notch.  As a result, you can apply too much of a good thing and it can start affecting the detection depth of non-discriminated targets if you set the disc breakpoint well above the typical top of the small aluminum range which is about 40 on the Deus -6.4 to 99 scale (ferrous typically tops out roughly around 10).  It is adjustable all the way up to 99, I believe.  Deus has a separate audio notch filter if you just want to silence certain segments on the scale - TIDs that fall within the notched regions will still display unlike with disc where no TIDs will be displayed for targets below the breakpoint (and with iron volume on, everything below the breakpoint will sound of with the ferrous tone (or whatever pitch you have customized that tone to sound like) even if you set the disc breakpoint well into the non-ferrous region of the TID scale.

BTW there is no threshold setting on the regular discrimination modes.  Only the pseudo all metal modes (Gold Field and Relic Programs) that use an iron audio reject filter instead of disc, have an adjustable threshold tone.

HTH

[NCtoad]

5 minutes ago, Chase Goldman said:

It's pretty simple in concept, you are basically enabling just the audio of the discriminated targets to sound off in your headphones.  Anything that is detected below the discrimination breakpoint is heard as a "ferrous" tone unless you set iron volume to off.  You don't know what the ferrous ID is, you just know it's less than the disc setpoint you set.  The detector, through the discrimination filter, ignores these targets when integrating the discriminated non-ferrous target ID, so that keeps what the disc filter thinks as ferrous from affecting the non-ferrous IDs.  Remove the disc filter, and mixed ferrous/non-ferrous can combine to give you down averaged target IDs in the presence of adjacent iron. It's one of those secret sauce filters so it's not clear what is actually going on underneath the hood, but it is more sophisticated than simple TID based audio masking like notch.  As a result, you can apply too much of a good thing and start affecting the detection depth of non-discriminated targets if you set the breakpoint well above the typical top of the ferrous ID range which is around 10 or 15 on the Deus -6 to 99 scale.

HTH

Let me see if I understand this correctly.  On the deus the disc circuit is in play to disc out ferrous, but you can turn up iron volume and still hear it.  But by having the ferrous discriminated out, it doesn’t affect the vdi numbers by averaging.  Thus you can hear the iron and have more accurate target ID’s.  ?

[Chase Goldman]

26 minutes ago, NCtoad said:

Let me see if I understand this correctly.  On the deus the disc circuit is in play to disc out ferrous, but you can turn up iron volume and still hear it.  But by having the ferrous discriminated out, it doesn’t affect the vdi numbers by averaging.  Thus you can hear the iron and have more accurate target ID’s.  ?

You got it.  A pretty powerful and underappreciated feature.  That's one of the reasons why it's considered so good in iron.

I think XP underplays the significance of this feature.  Andy Sabisch in his Deus Bootcamp classes emphasizes how disc does not equal notch on Deus and the importance of running with some minimal level of disc to keep the horseshoe display stable and reliably indicating ferrous.  Calabash and I discovered how powerful the iron volume feature was when we refined our pitch-based relic program based on a tip from a UK hunter.  With Pitch audio, disc set between 6 to10, and using iron volume you have one hell of a powerful audio "alert" system to non-ferrous hiding amongst thick iron.  You hear the ferrous grunts and then all of a sudden you hear a pitch-based zip and you are off to the races.  Since you are using pitch audio, you are more reliant on visual target ID to clue you into the composition of the non-ferrous target, and sometimes you do get ferrous breaking through the disc threshold or wrapping around and falsing which can sometimes fool you (but multitone is susceptible too), but otherwise it is a Kicker of a relic program because the non-ferrous pitch audio is so distinct from the ferrous grunts.  And you want to hear those ferrous grunts because that tells you you are detecting in the right place (note that you can adjust iron volume down so you have less audio fatigue).  My hope is that the increased accuracy/stability of non-ferrous target ID and iron filtering that comes along with FMF makes it even more powerful on Deus II than it already is on Deus I.

[scoopjohnb]

A 100% accurate TID with al the variables like mineralisation, depth, distorted shape, etc etc is the holy grail of detectors.

I’m happy when it has repeatable performance in the same spot, enough stability and enough range to accomodate my needs in fine tuning my detector.

I remember a very trashy spot where a slight shift in discriminator and sensitivity setting meant the difference between old and new pulltabs. I prefer digging the old style. That meant more coins per less trash ratio.

And then I ran out of old tabs and that’s when the work started 🙂

[brys]

i had a very solid 91 sig and expected a milled silver coin as it was so good. but turned out to be a hot rock

just saying

[relicmeister]

Maybe not a matter related to this thread, but I would really appreciate a simplified but descriptive explanation of the use of pitch where it is based not on conductivity but strength of signal based on size (density/conductivity?) and depth. I’ve not used pitch mode much because I don’t really get it. How do you interrogate targets using pitch mode?   I know some of you guys really prefer it for relic hunting and I want to understand and use it. Thanks. 

[Chase Goldman]

On 12/25/2021 at 8:51 AM, brys said:

i had a very solid 91 sig and expected a milled silver coin as it was so good. but turned out to be a hot rock

just saying

Hot rocks and other intact symmetric junk targets (ring pulls, freshness seals, pull tabs) will still give solid TIDs but may give audio clues (such as hollow/thin sounding tones and distortion when wiggling off the edge).  Hence my previous point about integrating both the audio information AND the visual TID to make a fully informed dig decision. 

Many undesirable targets are just going to fool any machine and detectorist no matter what.  That's just one of the things that makes detecting a challenge. 

Just saying.