A Really Disheartening Prospecting Experience

[Condor]

I have debated writing this but some things need to be aired.  I don't intend to trespass on our forum rules of ad hominem attacks, so I'll be vague (barely).  Last week I did a solo run to Rye Patch, intending to stay 3 days.  For 2 days I hadn't seen a soul except far off dust trails.  On the 3rd morning I saw a dark colored truck due west of section 19 so I thought I would go and visit and see if it was anyone I know.  I found 2 guys with bright colored LSU shirts and a truck bearing Louisiana plates.  The were struggling to assemble a brand new XP Deus I with a High Frequency coil.  We got to talking while I took over the assembly of the Deus, and they told me they had purchased 2 gold claims in the area.  After I got the detector up and running we chatted awhile longer and it was clear they were out of their element.  Very amiable fellows and we continued talking about detecting and the likelihood of finding gold.  I told them while the Deus 1 is a capable detector, it would not be a first choice for detecting Rye Patch.  

It seems that in their haste they had gone to their local detector dealer in LA and told him they needed a gold detector.  He had 1 detector left in his shop, that being a Deus 1.  He demonstrated the detector in his front yard over a man's gold ring.  The detector clearly detected a gold ring and they bought it full retail with a High Frequency round coil and a pinpointer.  In all fairness, the dealer in a southern state knows little to nothing about detecting gold nuggets in the west.  Plus, that's the only detector he had available and they were in a hurry. 

So, we talked awhile longer and after a little private consultation they offered me the opportunity to detect their claim with them.  We agreed to a 50/50 split and off we went following GPS coordinates due west and straight uphill.  After a time I asked them if this claim had produced any gold, not having seen any evidence of workings, dig holes or old timers camps.  They told me that according to the seller they could expect to find an ounce a week and that it was not uncommon to find an oz a day.  I shook my head an told them I don't think so, since this was way outside the known gold producing zone.  Nevertheless, I detected about a mile in a horseshoe loop back to our starting point.  Not one single target, no trash, no bullets and no evidence of workings. 

I had a pretty good idea that they had been sold on a dream but they were such nice and decent guys I wanted to help.  I called home in Fernley NV and had my girlfriend gather up my GPZ 7000 and Equinox 800 and meet me in Lovelock.  The next day I met with my new Cajun friends and they still had not met with their seller so I told me let's go detect using my true gold detectors.  I gave them some quick lessons and followed along while they detected and dug trash targets.  I detected a few promising signals with the 6000 and had them come and listen with the other detectors.  Unfortunately, none of my promising targets were gold, but they had a chance to learn about the whisper targets, and try understand the loud booming targets were likely trash. 

They offered to pay me for my time and use of detectors and I countered they could pay for my girlfriend's gas for delivering the detectors, but that I was happy to spend time with them detecting.   Mind you, I'm no Albert Sweitzer, but I just felt bad that these guys had been abused trying to join and learn my favorite hobby.  By day 6 of my 3 day trip I needed to get home for some appointments.  They had finally met with their seller and learned that the area we explored was not in fact their claim.   He showed them the claim (from the description worse) although he didn't show them where the gold was, but they enjoyed some sightseeing of Majuba.  I remained dubious, but they had renewed faith and I had to leave.  They detected their new claim (with my detectors) the next morning and found a bullet, and some aluminum targets.  Nothing promising.

I called Lucky Lundy and explained this dilemma of some nice guys getting some bad information.  He was otherwise committed and couldn't help, but made some calls and found another fellow prospector who needed a good excuse to get out for a day of prospecting and agreed to meet my Cajun friends.  He helped them as much as he could, no one found any gold.   All I can say is we gave it a game effort, or an honest effort as it were.   They are on their way back to Louisiana having learned the promise of riches in gold claims out west can be alluring but success is fleeting.  $12k may not be a lot to most folks, but it sure is to me.  

I understand that in the business of selling used cars and gold claims a little puffery is to be tolerated.  I think this went way beyond puffery, I saw the text exchanges.  To add insult to injury, the seller offered to sell them a 3rd claim with a deposit due immediately.   I am personally embarrassed and pissed that this still goes on.   These guys were really nice people and honest to a fault. 

I know, they should have done more research and been more skeptical of the claims made.  They never heard of this forum, but had they inquired here, our people could have cautioned them.  All I can say is thank god they hadn't heard of Long Range Locators, or whatever they're called these days. 

Perhaps the seller came in and tell his version of events.  Unlikely.

 

 

 

 

 

[Calarms]

WOW ! That is really terrible , sorry to hear about people getting taken like that , if the seller promised certain consideration, that equates a performance contract , perhaps litigation would be there only avenue at this point, 

[phrunt]

You've proven how nice and honorable of a guy you are Condor, it's a shame the "seller" of said claims is unlikely to do the same.  The claims of an ounce a day or even an ounce a week should have been the giveaway, who would sell a claim like that for 12k?  Poor guys seem like they were taken for a ride.

 

[flakmagnet]

39 minutes ago, Condor said:

Perhaps the seller came in and tell his version of events.  Unlikely.

Very unlikely. This is the kind of thing I would expect of a sleazy used car dealer, 
not a metal detector dealer. I hate this kind of naked dishonesty, especially with people who are newbies.

I have to say Condor, you go up a notch in my book with every post you put up.

 

[jasong]

Well, no claim is valid until a discovery has been made on it (43 CFR 3832.11 part b) - and there is clear precedent showing that a discovery must be of economic (ie commercial scale) significance. There is a large body of precedent from federal courts detailing exactly what it must consist of (and almost no recreational/club claims I've seen would qualify), but I'm not going to get into the weeds on it. Still, one might find it interesting to ask the seller where exactly his discovery was, and what it consisted of, just out of curiosity.

One might also read the entire body of current mining code (it's not that bad, I've done it) and maybe look into laws surrounding contracts too, and in there they might conceivably find a number of other items that could be helpful in a range of hypothetical actions, like civil litigation. This is not legal advice though, I'm just saying these things are potential things that might occur to a scam victim in such a situation.

That said - and I'm not trying to be unfeeling here, there is no sugarcoated way to say this though -  I highly doubt 2 guys with a Deus 1, who have no clue what a mining claim is, are unfamiliar with mining law, and apparantly don't even know how to mine or prospect would be found by the BLM to be holding and using a mining claim in a commercially economic manner nor could they prove to the BLM that the claim possessed commercially economic levels of resources, in which case their mining claim should be devalidated anyways. Mining claims are not intended for recreation, vacations, or recreational clubs and while I feel bad for the scam victims and despise the scammers, people need to stop dropping $12k on things they've done zero research on because they feed the fire, and that fire is making actual prospecting as it is intended by law more difficult every year.

[F350Platinum]

Gotta say you're a really nice person to do that. 👍

I recently had someone approach me on on one of my permissions. He was nice enough but wanted to know what I was finding (I had just hit the motherlode of old buttons) and who owned the land. I told him straight up that any detectorist would be reluctant to give him that sort of info. I think he got the point.

I changed the subject and talked about detectors with him for a while and never gave him any clues, as I knew I would find him there another day if I did. I did tell him that he should not be on any property without permission.

I shouldn't be making your virtuous post into a cautionary tale, but hopefully they won't go to your claim someday without your knowledge. 🙂 For me the problem with people is people. 😀

[geof_junk]

Gold does funny things to people even very good friends. If you give anyone information, that they may use it to their advantage. 🤐

[Condor]

Jasong,

Thanks for the legal info, I will delve into that myself.  I am a retired federal prison sentence salesman (federal investigator) so I am accustomed to the intricacies of law and legal precedent.

[klunker]

10 hours ago, jasong said:

Well, no claim is valid until a discovery has been made on it (43 CFR 3832.11 part b) -

This is one of those times that I wish that instead of a like button there was a special button that turned on flashing colored lights and played audio of a rousing John Phillips Sousa march. That might spare all of you from having to endure one of my rants and save Mr. H. from setting off my shock collar.

Thanks J.  I couldn't have stated it better.

[mn90403]

There have been some 'paper' flippers using the Rye Patch name and reputation for finding gold for a few years now.  They have made much, much more money flipping claims than finding any gold themselves.  To hear your description of weekly and perhaps daily gold find expectations told to expectant buyers smacks of fraud more than hype.  To have a claim 'near' a gold producing area is not the same as having a producing claim.  Of course an uninformed buyer or 'newbie' as Condor has described would not know how to prove the claims.

Let all buyers be ware that they should 'prove the claims (not just the paperwork filings)' of the seller before parting with your money.  We should name names and put good and bad reputations on display for what they sell.  We don't want people to be 'oversold' or cheated just because the word gold is involved.